WDFW - Abuse Of Power or Unequal Discretion

[bearpaw]

Last night I attended a meeting with concerned citizens and with two Washington legislators. Unfortunately a third concerned legislator was unable to attend. During the meeting I mentioned that I was fairly active on this forum and I was asked to contact members of this forum looking for information.

The group is documenting cases where there has been an abuse of power by the WDFW. Several concerned citizens told stories of what had happened to them in what they considered to be an abuse of power by the WDFW or instances in which their rights had been violated.

I want to make it very clear that this group is not on a witch hunt. The group members are all upstanding citizens who are pro law enforcement and pro-WDFW. I listened to several stories of praise about WDFW personnel. But the concern the group has is that there may be some cases involving violations of citizens rights, unequal discretion by WDFW personnel, abuse of power, or internal coverups occuring within the WDFW. The group and the legislators want to find out to what extent these abuses may be occuring across the state.

The legislators want documented instances where there has been abuse, but they made it clear they only want verifiable instances where the WDFW has violated your rights or abused their power. They do not want complaints because you were busted for doing something illegal and you are still mad about getting caught.

If you feel you have been the victim of abuse or have information about abuse, unequal discretion, or violations of citizens rights involving the WDFW, please feel free to contact me. If it is sensitive info that you would prefer to discuss directly with the group leader or with a legislator I will put you directly in touch with them and you do not need to explain a thing to me. Feel free to call me at 509-684-6294 so we can talk off the record and I will put you in touch with the appropriate people.

[boneaddict]

Nice of them to do a probe.   All good reports from me though.  I have never had a bad experience with them.  I wish there were more of them out there than there are, and any time I have ever been questioned out in th ewoods, I was happy to see them doing their job protecting my/our resource.

[boneaddict]

Since you have their ear, you might question why they cannot have a member on this site to answer questions etc.  The gentleman that was on here before (before your time) did a good job of clearing up misconceptions.  Apparantly he was forced by the department to leave.  He was a great resource, and as moderators we made sure he didn't take any crap or abuse from disgruntled members.  For the most part everyone was very respectful and appreciative.

[jackelope]

i will echo what Bone said it's nice to see they are looking into issues...they should be if they have happened. my contacts with them have only been positive.

thanks for taking the time to be the middle man on this, Dale.

[DOUBLELUNG]

All of my contacts with game wardens have been positive.  Some were gruff, some were friendly, none were out of line.  I understand and expect them to try to discover any violations I may have committed; that said, the only time I was ever in violation when checked (Wyoming turkey, detached and notched tag but forgot to sign), the game warden was a bit gruff, but just handed me a pen and told me to fix it.

I did have a bit of a standoff when I was 14 with a NH State Trooper playing game warden.  It was about 2 weeks before trout season, and I had just landed the biggest brook trout of my life, about 16" and 2lb.  He walked down from the highway and told me fishing season was closed, and to release the fish.  I told him that stretch of river was open year round, with a reduced 2-fish limit outside of the regular trout season.  He stated I was wrong, and to release the fish (I was in waders, mid-river in late February or early March).  I said I was right, and would wait there if he wanted to check.   He must not have been sure, since he went back up to his car, and after a while drove away. 

[Kain]

No complaints for enforcement officers.  They have all been very polite and even helpful.  My complaint is that there are not enough of them.  Most of my issues or complaints would be for the commission and making rules that step on our rights or eliminate hunting oppurtunities for lame reasons.  (dogs for coyote, cougar season,  CPL required for carrying during archery and ML).

[bearpaw]

Hopefully there is not a widespread problem. However there were some very creditable people with a few disturbing stories which definetely got the ear of the legislators.

One common concern seems to be if the Dept is moving in the right direction with enforcement now making traffic stops, checking woodcutters, etc.

I was actually worried about making the post, there are some wdfw personnel that I consider friends that I do not want to disrespect. And I was worried about making someone mad who might try to target us. But like I told the wife, the group is only looking for information and we are not doing anything wrong. We should not be afraid to act in the civic cause.

[bearpaw]

Bone....are you asking for someone from legislature or from WDFW...to be a member on the forum.

[jackelope]

Dale...we had a guy who worked for wdfw on here unofficially answering questions occasionally. he'd let us know when the draw results were coming, etc.
pm sent.

[gasman]

Dale, thanks for all your help and support.

Youa re a great rep for us sportsmen's

[DOUBLELUNG]

One common concern seems to be if the Dept is moving in the right direction with enforcement now making traffic stops, checking woodcutters, etc.

I could NOT agree more.  Once the Enforcement Program chief came on from State Patrol, it got pretty hard to tell.  Our Fish and Wildlife Enforcement Officers need to be focused on protection of fish and wildlife resources. 

[bearpaw]

It is no easy job for the WDFW or the Commission to try and manage our resources and to satisfy all the people of Washington. Right here on this forum all of us never agree on any issue the same way. Just imagine the job they have satisfying all of us hunters, fishermen, commercial interests, non-consumptive users, and the greenies. We are all residents and they do have a responsibility to manage for the residents of the state.

Seems to me this is all the more reason to keep our agents focused on wildlife. But that's just my opinion.

The purpose of this thread was to find out about any abuse that could be occuring so I better stay focused on this thread......

If anyone has anything to report, let me know and I will pass it to the people who want to know. We all know there are a lot of good people in the WDFW, but it can't hurt to check for any corruption.

[Kain]

Well it is encouraging that there is not a slew of complaints and WDFW bashing. 

[Dmanmastertracker]

 It just dawned on me who you were, sorry I'm slow at times.

Welcome Dale.

[bearpaw]

Kain, Yes I agree, I was a little worried about a bashing session too, I didn't want that to happen on this thread...but so far so good.

dman....I'm probably in the dark more than anyone here on who's who....send me a pm so i know who you are.

[KillBilly]

Dale, one thing you might be able to approach them on is the inconsistency in regulation interpretation. It is general knowledge that each enforcement officer is allowed to interrupt a reg. the way they see fit. Their Supervisors will attest to that. The issue here would be that the door is wide open for violations of citizens rights & unequal discretion by WDFW enforcement officers.

It may give them something to think about when they look into root causes or potential causes.

[bearpaw]

That is one of the areas of concern. Officers probably need to be able to use some discretion but it has been questioned if that is being unfairly used at times. Of coarse that is tough to measure since everyone may judge what is fair differently than the next person. I will pass on your comment.

[dreamunelk]

It would be interesting to hear the examples of abuse.  I am willing to bet these are all people who violated a law or were reported as such.  Many landowners feel they can destroy salmon habitat or kill what ever they want just because they own land that these species use.  When a neighbor reports them for straightening out a creek or cutting down an eagles nest or shooting an elk in thier back yard out of season they always scream about their rights.

Good rule of thumb is when they say their rights have been violated there is an entire different side of the story.

[boneaddict]

I agree Killbilly, and it lends to the belief that some play favorites with friends and family or opens things up for discrimination.  Granted, its not necessarily the officers fault because many of the regulations seem really open ended or up for interpretation.  

[bearpaw]

Without a doubt there are two sides or more to every story. I think the legislators are only interested in reports of significant abuse or unequal discretion. The idea was to try and identify if there was a widespread problem or just isolated incidents.

I am happy to say that I only know of three or four instances that will be reported to the legislators. Only one instance has been brought to my attention from this forum's members. There may be other complaints reported by other menbers of the group that I don't know about yet.

I will say that I believe everyone reporting an incident thus far seems to have a legitimate complaint and seems to be an upstanding person. Not one person has complained to me just because they did something wrong and got busted. I think that in itself speaks highly of the hunting community and of the majority of our wildlife officers.

In respecting people's rights to privacy that is all I will say concerning specific complaints.

Since getting involved in this affair I have heard far more complaints from the general public about game wardens acting as state police and forest rangers rather than concentrating on being game wardens for fish and wildlife.

[CoryTDF]

I don't have any complaints other than possibly having somebody who speaks English write the regulations. They can be very confusing to say the least. I know ignorance of the law is no excuse, however, some of the regulations are misleading. It just seems like they could  make an effort to try and simplify boundaries or add better maps. I think that everybody can agree that there are parts of the regs that don't make much sense.  Not sure how related this is to your topic but it's just my

[Kain]

Since getting involved in this affair I have heard far more complaints from the general public about game wardens acting as state police and forest rangers rather than concentrating on being game wardens for fish and wildlife.

I would be all for them acting like state police or forest rangers if all money from tickets went back to WDFW.    You spend the resources you get the money.  You would have the different agencies fighting to get law breakers.

[bearpaw]

It seems a little frustrating to me that our limited number of enforcement officers are now spending time on other issues rather than patrolling for wildlife violations.

And it would make a little more sense if those fines are going to F&W, but i do not know if that is the case, does anyone know?

[Bob33]

I've had several enforcement officers from King County attend our hunter education classes.  They've gone out of their way to make themselves available, including giving out 24 hour cell phone numers.  They've also said that while they are fully authorized to carry out all law enforcement duties (traffic stops, domestic violence, etc.) they will only do that under very unusual circumstances: someone swerves by them at 100 miles per hour, a spouse is holding a spouse at gunpoint, etc.

I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for all the enforcement officers I've been fortunate to meet, and I've been hunting in Washington for about 46 years.

[SHANE(WA)]

POS Weatherman ferry county warden. Tim Hood retired is another, illegal searches and got caught pos

[300rum]

They have a good one in Goldendale.  Does a great job, very helpful.

There was a gal that checked me dove hunting a few times in the Yakima area.  She was never in uniform which bugged me and would walk in front of the dove field instead of coming from the side or behind, which ruined our hunt.  I did appreciate though, that she just asked if we had the plug in and asked that we try to put more than 2 shells in the magazine.  I don't ask to look at their gun and I particularly don't want to give them mine, especially when they are not in uniform.

[bearpaw]

POS Weatherman ferry county warden. Tim Hood retired is another, illegal searches and got caught pos

Not sure what this means shane?

[yelp]

POS Weatherman ferry county warden. Tim Hood retired is another, illegal searches and got caught pos

I know both and have been checked by both twice.  Professional and courteous each time. 

[SHANE(WA)]

I know enough about those 2, enough said. What about all the others that have been fired lol bunch of people with a badge abusing their power as always. I have very few kind words for any of them, met very few that were cool, but there are some.

[bowhunterforever]

I have heard some bad stories about tim hood.

[SHANE(WA)]

*censored* bag, likes to watch young girls pee also, whack job.He set up on hill behind us and watched us walleye fish the columbia river, well my 2 cousins were with us, 10 and 13 at the time, well they were going to the bathroom up on the hill behind us, well lets see where was Timmy? watching it all. Or how about there was 10 of us up bearhunting one year, we all headed out early one morning to hunt, my cousin stayed at camp, wasnt feeling to good.About 8 am he hears something in camp, grabs his pistol thinking its a bear in camp, NOPE, its Timmy Hood, going thru our coolers and whatever else he could find, cousin said u shoulda saw the look on his face when he saw him, backtracking, uh uh uh uh well well uh, ^&*( face. He also got a earful when he came across a ridge to check us at 1 hr left of light while we were bear hunting, screwed the whole hunt up that night, sorry they have no right to come in the field and mess with MY time off work while I am up hunting, u wanna check me at my rig thats fine, be there waiting, do not come out and screw up someones hunt.

Weatherman, well the story is a family had a pet deer years ago mother was hit in front of their house, fawn stayed around, the family just took care of it.Well somebody called and turned them in, weatherman shows up.Deer is in a coop, the father says it sleeps in here at night, it goes in here everynight, we dont make it.So he goes in there and tries to get it to go out, deer wont leave, pulls out his pistol and shoots it dead in front od a little girl, i know where this house is to this day, kelly hill. This is one shady individual, harassing many hunters in his day, I have heard it all from my dad about this guy.

[yelp]

I know that some agents don't use the courtesy we would like them to use at times.  I have seen rude behavior from officers before and it almost hurts them.  There are other ways of getting information or evidence.  They have some rights but the law has grey areas in regards to privacy IMO.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.15.094

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.15.085

 Hunters/Fishers will always be subject to these laws no matter how innocent we are. That being said there is no excuse for abuses outside of the rights officers have. IMO  being professional, courteous and honest can get you more, but I am not an officer just a hunter.   

[SHANE(WA)]

What's funny is I have had nothing but pleasurable and helpful experiences outta state, MT and ID it's always here, friends of mine say the same thing

[bearpaw]

Re: Don Weatherman
I know Don pretty darn well and think that perhaps you have the wrong picture of him. I have heard about his colorful youth, but he turned a new leaf many many years ago, and it's that history that makes him so good at busting violators. I will admit that the first time we met in the field many years ago, he thought I was a poacher and I thought he was a jerk, but after that initial contact we talked it out, and over time became friends. I have heard many people say how well he handles himself and how well he presents himself and that he is better than most other agents they have met. I wouldn't be much of a person if I didn't speak up in his strong support. I think he is an excellent agent. Perhaps you have gotten sideways with him over something in the past. I would suggest that you try talking to him if you think he treats you unfairly in the future. From past experience I can tell you that if you treat him decent he will treat you decent as well.

Re: Tim Hood
I have also spent quite a bit of time with Tim and respect him as well. He has always treated myself and other hunters with me, with respect. I will admit, I don't think he trusted anyone as being completely straight, but that mentallity is what is taught to enforcement so they don't miss violations, so I never held it against him. Perhaps you think he was looking at the girls, or perhaps he did look their way to see what they were doing, (it's not uncommon for poachers to sneak fish to their vehicle and then fish for more fish) I don't know, but I have never heard anything like that about him before and would have to think that you are mistaken.

It's common for all the agents to sit back with spotters and binos and watch people for violations, that's how they find them. I can't say that I agree with everything every agent has done. Don busted one of my friends for something a few years back and made a bigger deal out of it than I thought was right. I even questioned him about it. But the bottom line is that Don sited my friend within the law and he pursued it in what he thought was the proper way.

I'm really sorry you've had a bad expereince and hope the future is better for you. 

[bearpaw]

shane....I should have followed up by saying that if you honestly feel they were unethical or unfair, I will give you the legislators contact info so you can report it or you can write up your complaint and I will deliver it to the legislators for you.

After all, I was asked to collect info, not to make decisions on specific complaints.
Regards, Dale

[PA BEN]

The only complaint I have personally is when I was bow hunting up Summet Valley. I was about 100 yds up the hill from the road in a tree stand when Now retired officer and a helper, set up next to the road in the ditch to catch this group of guy's road hunting for deer, guy's were riding in the back of a pickup shooting deer form the pickup with there bows. BTW, I called the game dept. on these guys.  Will they didn't know I was above them and they kept talking, mean while a nice 4 point was making his way down the trail pass my tree stand. With all the talking going on the buck spooked off. I walked down the hill and said to them, I appreciate the job your doing, but could you keep quite. They were very sorry.

[yelp]

If all the WDFW has to worry about is being quiet than I guess we have it pretty good?  As far as an abuse..unless he knew you what tree you were in at the time and knew you were in it..then that sucks PA BEN.

[PA BEN]

They didn't know I was there. I thanked them for the good job, but keep it quite next time. You don't know if someone hunting near by.

[Gobble]

I have nothing but respect for what they do. I have a family member who is a gamie and if you knew all the crap they have to deal with you would understand why they sometimes get cranky. I have had a couple issues while fishing with a over zealous warden while fishing the Satsop. He came in and made everyone stop fishing and did a license check and barb check. He was quite the jerk but he was doing all of us a favor by busting the poachers (he did bust a couple) He could have been a little nicer I guess but he was only doing his job. 

[bearpaw]

It's definitely not an easy job dealing with some people who automatically hate you due to the uniform you wear. But wardens have positive things in their jobs too. I have been glad to see this isn't just a big bashing thread because I was worried about that. It was only meant to probe for real problems and there doesn't seem to ne a widespread problem. It seems like more people are unhappy with upper level management than with the enforcement officers.

[Broken nock]

Have a friend that arrowed his deer (doe) took it to Edgar's meat on the south hill. Got a nock on the door a few days later and received a citation for poaching. Because the date on his tag that was cut was was still visible. Warden said that he might try to use the tag again. my friend  tried to say that the tag was no good because it was notched. Officer was rude, and he still got his ticket. My friend went down to Edgar's meat, and asked him if he gave his tag to the Warden. The owner of Edgar's told him that the officer is in there every couple of days and rifles through the tags during hunting season. Called the Region 1 office to file a complaint and the boss man said. you can't file a complaint against the officer just take the ticket it's no big thing it's kinda like a speeding ticket. My friend then tried to complain to Olympia about both of them now. Nothing. Went to court on the date he was suppose to, and his name wasn't called. Judge asked him his name, and the prosecuting attorney said that the state dropped the charges.

A coworker of mine who lives in Idaho was hunting the Idaho side of liberty lake behind the ORV park. Driving down the road and sees a sign saying Washington State Line 2 miles ahead. He pulls over not even a hundred yards past the sign. Him and his boy get out load their rifles and start walking up the road back towards the sign. A Washington warden comes ripping up the road in his P.U. and stops them. Mysteriously they were in Washington not Idaho Even though the sign said two miles to the state line. Writes them up for hunting without a licence, carring a loaded weapon during deer season, and a couple of other things. Mike made as many calls as he could to try to get it taken care of to no avail. Goes to court same thing as Glenn charges dropped.

If they keep this crap up because no one at the top can control their officers, someone will. And that will make the rest of us honest hunters pay for it. I mean if you really think about it are these Game Enforcement Officers really tree-huggin hippie sierra club greenpeace p.e.t.a. supporters taking out their aggressions on the honest hunters hurting these fuzzy little animals.