Anderson new WDFW director

[bearpaw]

Oh well, they need money to operate and we'll have to give it to them one way or another. I t just kind of jerks my chain that someone is OK to use all weapons if they pay the price, when we all used to do it every year.

If I remember right, resource allocation was all about giving bowhunters more bow time, muzz more muzz time and splitting apart the hunters.

In reality it might be a double edged sword that is limiting exposure of new participants to bow hunting or muzzleloader hunting. I suspect that over generations resource allocation could be very detrimental to primitive hunting methods in our state.

What's the difference if your 20 days or 30 days is split up through 3 different weapon seasons or all in one weapon season. Many people in almost every other state across the nation thinks Washington resource allocation is crazy.

[bobcat]

If you don't like "resource allocation" what's the alternative? Only alternative I see would be to do away with the general archery and muzzleloader seasons and just combine everything into one. So that if you want to hunt with a bow or muzzleloader you would have to do it when everybody else is hunting with a rifle. We've got too many people and not enough game to have every season open to everybody.

[Ray]

Yeah everyone just get's a tag and shows up to hunt in the forest on the same day. Total chaos.

I prefer the - choose your weapon mode.

[bearpaw]

Ray I understand that some guys do prefer to choose weapons only....

bobcat....to answer your question, there used to be seperate archery seasons, muzzleloader seasons, and rifle seasons just like in Idaho or Montana. You bought an inexpensive permit to hunt with additional weapons.

I liked it that way because I enjoy all types of weapons hunting. Some guys are only bow or muzz, so they like it this way like we have it now.

But now you can buy the multiple season tag and hunt all three if you pay the big dollars. Only difference WDFW is getting more money for that opportunity.

I think wacenturian made a really good statement about the detrimental affects resource allocation has had on hunter numbers in Washington. While a reduction of hunter numbers may seem like a good thing, over the long term it could spell hunting's demise....

[bobcat]

I knew exactly what you were talking about when a person could hunt all seasons without having to pick just one. I do remember that. I was probably only 10 years old but I remember. I would love it if it was still like that. I've hunted with all three weapon choices and would love the opportunity to be able to hunt all three seasons just like it used to be 30 years ago. But, I don't think we have the numbers of deer and elk that could take that extra pressure. I think we put too much pressure on them now as it is, with general season hunting going on for deer/elk from September 1st to December 31st. That's 4 months straight with maybe only 1 week or maybe two weeks in that time period when there is no general season for big game.

Also look at the technology in archery and muzzleloader equimpent that has changed so much over the years. Now anybody can go buy a bow and be shooting proficiently within a month. Same with muzzleloaders. The learning curve is much shorter than it used to be, especially with the internet and sites like this. Archery hunters now routinely shoot out to 60 yards and muzzleloaders to 150, even though I wouldn't recommend it. Thirty years ago you never would have heard of such long range shooting being done with both weapon types. I'd guess for archery a long shot would have been 35 yards, and for a muzzleloader a long shot would have been 75 yards. I just don't see any way the deer and elk could take the additional pressure of everybody with a tag hunting all three seasons.

[bearpaw]

I knew exactly what you were talking about when a person could hunt all seasons without having to pick just one. I do remember that. I was probably only 10 years old but I remember. I would love it if it was still like that. I've hunted with all three weapon choices and would love the opportunity to be able to hunt all three seasons just like it used to be 30 years ago. But, I don't think we have the numbers of deer and elk that could take that extra pressure. I think we put too much pressure on them now as it is, with general season hunting going on for deer/elk from September 1st to December 31st. That's 4 months straight with maybe only 1 week or maybe two weeks in that time period when there is no general season for big game.

Yes I agree we can not afford to over hunt any more than we are. But I think the animals are being hunted over a longer period now than before. They lenghtened archery seasons with resource allocation.

This isn't a huge thorn in my side, I just liked it a little better when I could use all three weapons. It kind of erks me that you can still do it if you pay the price....From a hunter recruitment standpoint it also seems to be worse.

[Wacenturion]

Bobcat....I tend to agree with you on the advances in technology, especially archery.  However my old .54 cal T/C Renegade I hunted with during the 70's, was and is much more proficient than you allude to.  Not that I shoot long range, but believe me with a good rest and knowing that weapon and where it shoots....100-150 yards no problem.  Grains of powder, length of barrels and velocity has not chanced that much with in-lines.  However in-lines are cheaper and probably appeal to many who would otherwise not muzzleload with a side ignition gun.  So in that sense there might indeed be more pressure from folks as you mentioned.

The key here is as I stated before....pressure is somewhat self limiting.  Just like you can harvest only one deer, an individual can only take so much time off.  If all hunters were retired like me I would agree with you, but they are not.  Being able to hunt like we did before resource allocation is a good thing.  Will we have more hunters....hopefully.  Will there be some conflicts and problems...probably....there always has been and there always will be.

Maybe I'm missing something here or it's just my hunting experiences, but I would rather go back to the way it was and choose what, when and where I want to hunt....and not be directed by some manipulated WDFW system that limits my opportunity.  I had a better chance at branched antlered bulls back then than now.  At least I could hunt them.  Now I may never get drawn.  Don't seem to remember the harvest being devoid of some nice bulls every year.  They...the elk managed just fine with more hunters.  Now I put in every year for an eastern bull unit, because if I get drawn that's the hunt I want.  Problem is I live on the west side so I can't elk hunt over here during the general season after not pulling a permit.  Stupid....the state and businesses are loosing revenue from me and every other hunter out there, but WDFW could give a crap.  They are near sighted and only look at the direct benefits to them.
 

[bobcat]

I used to hunt with a Renegade. Back in the late 80's, so yes I know they are just as good as the new inlines. I think my Renegade would shoot better at 100 yards than my inline will shoot at 50! I'm just saying for somebody just starting out in muzzleloading, they are now beginning with the idea that they can shoot to 150 yards because this is what they see on tv or read in the magazines and on the internet. I really would like it if they could allow everyone to hunt all the seasons, if it could be done without hurting our deer/elk populations. Somehow I think my wife might not be a fan of it though!

[Wacenturion]

Bobcat.........you said..........

"I really would like it if they could allow everyone to hunt all the seasons, if it could be done without hurting our deer/elk populations. Somehow I think my wife might not be a fan of it though!"

See I told you pressure is somewhat self limiting...........a whole lot of wives feel that way........lol.  

[Dave Workman]

If you don't like "resource allocation" what's the alternative? Only alternative I see would be to do away with the general archery and muzzleloader seasons and just combine everything into one. So that if you want to hunt with a bow or muzzleloader you would have to do it when everybody else is hunting with a rifle. We've got too many people and not enough game to have every season open to everybody.

NO. That's not what we're talking about.  At least not what I am talking about.

Three separate season opportunities, or split it up like early and late bow and ML seasons.  HOWEVER, a person can buy a general tag and hunt the general hunt, and then for a small fee, get an archery stamp and/OR an ML stamp and hunt those seasons as well.

So long as you can ONLY take one animal a calendar season, tht opens up vast opportunities.  Not everyone is going to hunt the alternate seasons. A whole lot of people don't shoot bows or muzzle loaders, but they do hunt with an 06 and they deserve at least two full weeks with three full weekends to do it.  If they want to hunt an early or late primitive season, welcome aboard.

[Dave Workman]

Yeah everyone just get's a tag and shows up to hunt in the forest on the same day. Total chaos.

I prefer the - choose your weapon mode.

Oh that's nonsense, and I think you know it,, Ray.
Read my other posts on this subject.  I have always advocated separate ML, archery and modern weapon seasons. What I have advocated, and what Wacenturion has explained, is that,, FOR AN ADDITIONAL STAMP FEE, a modern guy could go afield during one of those alternate seasons and hunt with a bow or a muzzleloader.

There is time on the calendar to do this.  Do archery and ML early hunts (break up the units or however you want to do it) starting in mid- to late September running to a weekend that is one full week prior to the general opener for deer.  then run your modern rifle deer and elk hunts consecutively, and then run your late primitive seasons in late November, being careful to avoid conflicts with the late modern rifle buck hunts. 

[Ray]

What's nonsense?

[bobcat]

Wow, just imagine popular units like the Winston during early archery elk season if they opened it up to anybody with a tag!   

Or, any deer or elk modern firearm season, you'd have thousands of hunters who previously only hunted archery or muzzleloader seasons out there with a rifle.

Just as Ray said, it would be total chaos.

[Wacenturion]

Bobcat.....you're still assuming every hunter has all the free time in the world available to them during the hunting seasons.  They don't.  Hunters who prefer archery are going to focus their available time off on an appropriate archery season.  Those that prefer to muzzleload, will focus on appropriate muzzle season, as is also the case with the rifle hunter.

Being able to hunt outside of their preferred choice allows flexibility to expand their opportunity.....but only if they have not taken an animal yet or have the time and resources to do so.  So applying the above to deer.........we now add say elk.....then we add bear, waterfowl, upland birds, and the rest of the mix into the equation for the hunting public.  People just don't have the time to be out there for everything as some would assume.

There is also the law of the fagged out hunter.  No this doesn't mean what you might think.  Has nothing to do with hunting on Brokeback Mountain.  This is a statement I heard years ago, when fagged out meant tired of it all, to hard to get something, etc.  Occurs as the season progresses.  The example used back then was on pheasants.  Late in the season, fewer birds, didn't hold...ran, cold, harder to be successful.  Hunter numbers dropped and they choose to stay home where they could watch TV in front of a warm fire.  That principal also applies to our discussion.  You have to factor that in.  Just food for thought.

[WAcoyotehunter]

I'm not sure th herds could handle that much pressure for that amount of time.  They get pushed pretty hard already.  If I remember correctly Washington only has 58k elk...we don't need more harvest, we need more habitat and more elk... the higher harvest would follow.  I would like to see more emphasis on habitat improvements- i.e water developments, weed control, proper timber managment, controlled burns, winter range protection...we could have more animals, but it would take work and $.