Boneaddict Entiat deer management plan

[WDFW-SUX]

Lots of good thoughts here.  The department has limited late tags in a number of units to maximize trophy potential (desert, pearrygin, etc.), but for whatever reason let the entiat go the last couple years.  Would love to get their input on the thinking there...increased late tags, public access during winter?  It certainly doesn't make sense from my perspective.

Here is why they have expanded the late tags note the 2nd most requested response. the Entiat is the only herd in the state that could have sustained the hunting seasons that the masses wanted. Now that the deer are gone it will be interesting to see how they adjust.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/surveys/2006-08hunting_season_survey.pdf

[Ridgerunner]

If you go permit only on the regular season then you will need to go permit only on the high hunt as well.  I really don't think permit only is the direction we want to go.  I personally think it would stink to only be able to hunt muleys every 3-4 years.  They could give out permits for three point or less bucks as well.  I think the number of late tags should be reduced as well. 

[huntnphool]

"(Can't believe I just said that....I hate new regulation.....)"

  Iceman, your slipping

[boneaddict]

I do not want or think permit only is the way to go.  I think there is some finer twinking we can do first. 

[HighCountry10]

Some great management ideas and opinions on this topic.  I would like to see the average success rate for the 310 late archery tags.  My intitial gut feeling is that archery equipment has become so much more effective that it truly can do much more damage than previously thought.  I know and see many deer taken with archery equip.  Usually younger bucks with the occasional mature buck but still taking away from the numbers and quality.

[boneaddict]

It seems to me that the WSB published those statistics at one time in the last year or two.  i will dig to see if I am correct.  it had something to do with the proposal for the hunt dates, most specifically with early elk, but seems like deer was involved as well.

[huntnphool]

I like the 2 point permit idea, I think a lot of hunters would opt for it. I dont think it should be only in the Entiat, I see lots of genetically challenged 2 points throughout the east side. Make a permit available for every unit. Obviously some immature 2 points will be taken that have the 4 point genome but for a season or two I believe it needs to be done to cull the bad genes being spread. I think you are on to something Bone, I have been saying basically the same thing for a while now, the question is how do we get it done, or is it even possible to get it done?

[Lowedog]

2006 harvest reports: http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/harvest/2006/index.htm

I honesly think the current general seasons for rifle are good and the amount of late permits need to be decreased in the Entiat for both archery and rifle.  A lot of our thoughts at the moment are being based on what we know of the 2007 seasons late tags.  This was not a good season to draw a tag.  Snows came late and the migratory deer just weren't there.  A friend had the Swakane late tag and hunted hard for the first 12 days and went many days without even seeing a doe.  He ended up shooting a small 4 point and heading to Idaho for whitetails.

Late archery on the other hand needs fixed.  Especially with the multi tags now.  Way too many people hunting in the Swakane.  I like the idea of opening all the units up by permit only for late archery.

As far as 2 points go, like I said before, let the kids shoot em.  Give out a bunch of youth any buck tags for general season in all the units.  I know my nephew wants to shoot anything with antlers and a big 2 point would be just the ticket!

I don't believe the deer numbers are down just maybe the number of mature bucks in some areas.

-Lowedog

[huntnphool]

"As far as 2 points go, like I said before, let the kids shoot em.  Give out a bunch of youth any buck tags for general season in all the units."

Although I wasnt real clear, that was what I meant about permits for 2 points throughout the east side, I think kids would have a ball as long as adults didn't do the shooting, like Ive seen happen several times

[Geno]

As far as 2 points go, like I said before, let the kids shoot em.  Give out a bunch of youth any buck tags for general season in all the units.

Good idea, let the kids help out. Issue two point youth permits and reduce the number of special permits for a couple of years . Also late archery should be a permit hunt in Mule deer units.

[Colville]

"I don't believe the deer numbers are down just maybe the number of mature bucks in some areas." Lowedog

I think this is what the WDFW would say as well. Overall pop numbers aren't low. While I'm sure they count mature vs immature bucks they haven't managed the whole system with an eye toward the max mature bucks. Nor should they when the response they get to license holders is highly in preference to being able to hunt every year.

Before we start making solutions, ones that carry a massive change to the norm and require a huge sacrifice in weapon/location/open seasons... there has to be stated a specific problem and a measurement so you know if you've solved it. Is the specific problem that there's not enough mature bucks for late tag holders? What's enough? Is it that there's not enough bucks period? It sounds from reading the info at the WDFW and posts here that the complaint is that there's not enough 170 and up class bucks (approximation) for the late tag permit drawers to kill. And I think Bone is dead on about how many of those critters bit the dust a couple of seasons back.

One could go the other way though, end all late seasons and go to all general and none later than the 15th of Oct. Everyone will be able to hunt and you'll start seeing some massive bucks again on the winter ground. We aren't that efficient at killing the migrators till migration. We can have both open seasons and big bucks... we just can't have a 90% success rate shooting gallery on the winter ground. Some of those big deer would still get taken in the general but there'd be a ton of them left over too.   

I understand  wanting to draw that late hunt and  know you'll get a huge deer.  I'd like that. I just haven't seen a reason to steal general seasons from thousands in order to provide opportunity for a couple hundred. There's no way to provide even a fraction of the hunting opportunity if people want that opportunity to be on all but guaranteed success rate, winter ground hunts. The quality would return just as fast by ending the general season sooner and ending all late hunts as it would by going to permit only. Yeah, everyone would have to struggle to find those big deer, it wouldn't be easy but they would be there. But it's not enough that they be there, they have to be easy to kill too. Bottom line, there are people here with an interest in those late hunts who don't care about the opinions of other general season hunters and no one hunter or style has the moral high ground here. If your solution is self serving and pitting one hunter against another please try to explain why you think it's reasonable to take someone else's hunt and style in order to provide for your's. Believe it or not, there are general season hunters who don't put in for late permits who are passionate about hunting.

[Bigshooter]

Obviously I can't speak for everyone but I don't think anyone wants to see the general season disappear.  Permit the early seasons.  Give out 500 early rifle permits on the entiat and 20-30 late season rifle tags.  Then everyone still gets to hunt. And I think that you will be seeing more big bucks.  This also needs to be done for the early high hunt, archery hunts, and muzzleloader hunts.  Not to mention the entire state.

[Lowedog]

Well said Collville.  

I think most everyone will be happy with some minor tweaking of the current seasons.  Contrary to what we are reading here there are still some hogs walking around right now.  A year or two of lower pressure on the late seasons will make some major improvements on the age of bucks.

Believe it or not, there are general season hunters who don't put in for late permits who are passionate about hunting.

There are also a lot of hunters who put in for late hunts for nothing more than an easy meat hunt.

-Lowedog

[WDFW-SUX]

I really dont think we can have it both ways. If there are unlimited  tags for mule deer in eastern Washington there will always be a lack of true trophy animals in the state. Show me a state that has unlimited deer tags and Ill show you a state with sub par deer hunting.  Its obvious that Washington will never change the status quo, as there are too many people that like going out for there one weekend a year and doing the big deer camp thing and as long as those voices are loudest nothing will ever really change. When the masses scream for more late hunts they add late hunts regardless of the impact (Entiat-Methow).   WDFW has made the decision to manage for opportunity rather than quality and I think the current status of all the hunting seasons/ deer herds reflect that.

Thats my 2cents.

[jdb]

I agree with who ever said let the kids shoot them.