Boneaddict Entiat deer management plan

[Lowedog]

In 2006 the WDFW sold 165,000+ deer licenses.  43,000+ put in for 13,000+ deer permits.  Out of those 13,000 permits only a few hundred were for "trophy" quality hunts.  I would guess that maybe half of those 43,000 applicants were going after "trophy" tags.  So on a permit only system for mule deer how does the state come up with a system that will encourage people to even buy a license when a vast majority of hunters don't care about anything but going hunting every year and shooting anything legal?  I wonder how many of those 165,000 license holders hunt mule deer?   How about those units that are mostly private land?  How does the state issue permits for private land when the land owners decide who they allow to hunt there land? 

How about this for an idea, when you buy a deer tag you have to choose what species you want to hunt?  How much pressure do you guys think that would reduce on the mule deer?  Do many people hunt mule deer with the thought that they can hold out and if not sucessfull they can fill there tag on one of the later blacktail or whitetail hunts?

Just kind of wondering out loud here I guess...

-Lowedog

[bobcat]

Well, it works for Oregon so I don't see why it couldn't work for us.

[Ironhead]

Here is an example of the system I would like to see for Mule deer, in all of Eastern Washington. I am just throwing numbers out, as I haven't done any actual scientific studies. Dates and tag numbers would change in each unit according to Deer populations and haibtat along with migration timing.
   Example- Unit 247  Entiat  and  Unit 246 Slide Ridge  (combine common units)
Wilderness only
 Early Archery Aug.25-Sept.5  25 permits   Either sex 
 Early Muzz    Sept.6-16        15 permits   Either sex
 Early Rifle     Sept.17-27      10permits     Either sex
Modern Firearm
 General seas. 1   Oct.1-9      250 permits  Buck only
 General seas. 2   Oct.15-22   100 permits  Buck only
 General seas. 3   Oct.23-30   150 permits  Doe only
 General seas. 4    Nov.5-11    15   permits  Buck only
Late Archery       Nov.15-22   15  permits   Buck only
Private lands only Oct.15-25   100 permits Either sex

Thats 680 tags total - 30 Nov. tags- 100 private land tags- 150 doe only tags
 If not drawn for Mule Deer you could still hunt Whitetail and Blacktail over the counter, this would spread the hunters out.

It's sounds complicated, but I beleive it's the best way to have quality Deer hunting in Washington.

[lemondog]

Lowedog, Take a look at Colorado. It is the current sucess model for Mule Deer. Land owners are given "land owner tags" to sell in return for making better habitat and growing large bucks(some of which wander onto public land). Seasons are divided into 4 different time segments and every one has to draw. They are collecting $300.00+ for non resident tags and a fee if you dont draw. There finacinal "pool" has been extended from the state to the whole country. We could grow enough big critters to do the same.....I do agree the Indian problem has proven to be real. All you guys from Wenatchee should get togather with Slider and come over to my Huntin party on February 2nd. It is going to be a blast!

[WAmuleyHunter]

Dan i want to head over really bad man. but i have prior plans that i cant get out of. This is two year in  a row i havent been able to come.  But i am hoping the next time i head that way i will call ya up and swing by.  Hope its a great party.

[lemondog]

Garrett no problem, you are welcome anytime. Just give me some notice so I can be around. The party should be a blast! Lots of backstrap will be going down! O yea, nice picture in F&H news.....Again!

[Lowedog]

There is no way you can compare WA with CO.  We have maybe 1/4 of the mule deer habitat that CO does and no where near enough winter range to support herds large enough to attract nonresident hunters. 

Like I said in an earlier post, Chelan County deer numbers are close to capacity as it is.  The amount of mature bucks may be down at the moment in the Entiat unit but that's an easy fix by reducing late permits. 

I for one enjoy being able to hunt every year without having to spend a fortune to do so.  I may have to work hard to get away from the crowds but I would rather do that than maybe get to hunt every other or every 3rd year.  I have no interest in hunting blacktail or whitetail either that I would have to travel across the state to do so.

-Lowedog

[Colville]

How many hunters can hunt Entiat now? Between early and general seasons the answer is probably thousands.  Despite that number, they are doing so without the WDFW saying that the herd pop is suffering. That's because when we don't have early winter we are  just not that effective at getting at the mature bucks and we don't crop many does from the unit.

Most of the "solutions" are focused on insuring a quality hunt for a very limited number of people at the cost of hundreds to thousands who will not be able to hunt at all in that unit. With a lot of anger at crowding, doing this in the Entiat won't help crowding in the neighboring units.

There are tons of potential solutions, it all depends on how you define the problem which so far is pretty generic "not enough mature bucks". How about cut the late tags from 65 to 35. make the general season end on the 10th of Oct or the Sunday that is closest on a 9 day season. Limit the hunting opportunity for anyone who puts in for Entiat late any buck. Late permit seekers can't hunt the Entiat general at all. A lot of guys would not put in for that tag if it meant they couldn't also go on the 9 day hunt in the general. We could make the Entiat hunt choice selection available only if you chose only 1 hunt. Anyone who wants and is willing to hunt any of 4 units won't be able to select Entiat. These measures would dramatically cut the pool of applicants for that tag, the reduced permits and early ending general season should improve mature buck count without taking away the general season. But these type of solutions ask that the guys preferring "quality" also make some kind of sacrifice to provide for it. I see no reason people who prefer quantity/opportunity should be forced to subsidize quality for such a small number of hunters. That's what it really comes down to in the end. Who pays/who benefits. I'm all for late hunts on quality deer but I'm not willing to suggest general season hunters primarily pay the tab for it.

Seems the solution should force both side's hands. Want to hunt general, not going to hunt late mature bucks. Want to hunt that big buck in the snow, don't plan on hunting the general. Obviously, this is an overstatement and no one would go for it. But that's where we are, hunters aren't homogeneous.

[Bigshooter]

In 2004 Colorado had 88,000 hunters kill 37,708 deer.  This includes antlerless and whitetail.  This is only on the west side of the mountains does not include east side plains.  Washington in 2006 had 165,436 hunters and killed 37,579 deer.  This includes antlerless whitetails and blacktails.

[Cougeyes]

I for one would not like to see it ever go to a permit only season.  I love hunting too much every year and couldn't stand not hunting mule deer every year.  I would like to shoot a nice trophy buck someday, but not every area in the state has the capability of producing trophy bucks.  The entiat does and should be managed for it.  I dont think all eastside units should be changed on the basis of managing for trophy animals, i think the units that have produced trophy animals and should still produce those animals should be managed for that.  The area I have hunted for the last 10 years is not a trophy unit, but does produce nice bucks that i am very grateful and satisfied with.
     I agree with a lot of people, cut back on the number of tags in those trophy areas, and decrease the activity on the winter ranges, I bet some people wouldn't be  against cuttin way back on the permits for a few years until the numbers rebound then still only give out a limited number.  Way too many tags now. I dont know if this would ever be possible but possibly close the entiat and other trophy areas during the general season just like the Desert does.  Although there are no migrants in the desert so I am guessing that is why the season there is the way it is. Where the entitat deer during the general season are mostly resident deer unless a fluke snowstorm pushes the migrants down.  But, the migrants are those bucks hanging out up high so another option could possilby be to not allow the high hunt to happen in those areas as well. 

[wab]

   Did I mention the last two WINTERS!!!!!!! Guess how this winter is going for the deer? {Entiat and Methow} LIKE SHI_! Guess what?, there will be more complaning about lack of mature bucks next year.

[lemondog]

Lowedog. I did not say anyone would like not being able to hunt every year. I for one would hate it. It is not about that at all. The big picture is way bigger than you are looking at. In 20 years half the people over here will be living in your back yard.Picking berrys,pulling xmass boughs x-country skiing, hunting deer and everything else. It will be harder and harder to find that spot that no one else has gotton to.I have seen it happen to all my quality spots in western WA. I am one of them "go where no one else goes" type of guys too. You would probably like me if you got to know me.I am not a radical. I would rather we do something so we preserve quality and opportunity even if it is every 3rd or 4th year. I would not have liked someone telling me this when I was 25 but I can see things much clearer now. And , I do have to travel accross the state to hunt Mule Deer and that is just part of the deal.

[spin05]

That is how oregon does it for some of the better  draw tags.If you pick that tag that is your only deer oppurtunity no general season allowed................

[Lowedog]

In 20 years half the people over here will be living in your back yard.Picking berrys,pulling xmass boughs x-country skiing, hunting deer and everything else.

I thought that half those people were already here!  I see them picking berries and x-country skiing but not many of them are deer hunting.  

I would rather we do something so we preserve quality and opportunity even if it is every 3rd or 4th year. I would not have liked someone telling me this when I was 25 but I can see things much clearer now. And , I do have to travel accross the state to hunt Mule Deer and that is just part of the deal.

The situation is not as grim as it's made out to be.  I am not 25 I am 40 and I was born and raised on mule deer hunting right here in the Wenatchee valley.  Guess what, the mule deer hunting is better now than it was when I was 25.  When I was a kid and the seasons lasted 5 weekends and I would have been happy to shoot any buck I seldom saw a buck.  Now with a 9 day season I pass on some very nice bucks every year and see countless spikes, 2 and 3 points.  

And traveling to hunt is not part of the deal for me.  You have the choice to stay on the west side and hunt blacktail.  On a permit only for mule deer system if you don't draw a tag you can stay close to home and hunt blacktail.  I wouldn't have that luxery.  

I've been taking my 13yr old nephew hunting the last 2 years and he has killed deer both years.  So now let's go to a permit season and tell my nephew he can't hunt for the next year or 2 because he didn't draw a tag?  

Just so you know Lemondog, I have nothing against you and I am just providing another point of view.

   Did I mention the last two WINTERS!!!!!!! Guess how this winter is going for the deer? {Entiat and Methow} LIKE SHI_! Guess what?, there will be more complaning about lack of mature bucks next year.

Is this based on something you have seen?  I don't know about the Methow but the south facing slopes on the Chelan County winter range have been bare most of the winter.  I haven't been out much looking around this winter but I don't see that dire of conditions here where I'm at.

Collville, very good post!  You have made some great points on this matter! 

-Lowedog



  

[lemondog]

No problem, not taking it personally. I do belive some sort of changes are necessary and the options are many. At least we are talking about it! Just be ready to put your 2 cents in when the time comes. The department will listen befor the next season setting period. Last time I was involved in getting everyone talking about getting a few late permits into the Nanum and the Manatash. People wrote in and put that info in the surveys the department sent out and spoke at the comission hearing. What do you know, we got some tags. One of my pals  13 year old son took a nice 3 point on that tag this year! PS,. I would have loved to have grown up hunting Mule Deer in that country! That is a great thing...