3 point or better units

[DOUBLELUNG]

Less habitat = less wildlife is a cold hard fact.  Direct habitat loss through destruction to build subdivisions and sprawl out cities, indirect habitat loss through degradation as "clean farming" takes over inefficient family farms.  Herbicide sprays reduce browse for deer, elk, hares, grouse, berries for bears, etc.  Reductions in timber harvest on public lands reduce available forage.  Higher road densities lead to higher rates of poaching and roadkill.  Introduced weeds and other human practices burn up winter ranges too frequently for browse to re-establish before the next fire.  Introduced diseases like pneumonia in bighorns, hair loss in deer and elk from european and asian lice. 

Less habitat available for hunters for sure.  As human population density rises, more and more land gets closed off.  Nonconsumptive recreators use their political pull to restrict hunting.  Citiots relocate to the country then complain about hunters, wildlife, etc.   

Good private land goes from permission to leased hunting.  The wealthier hunters buy opportunities and go out of state, the poorer hunters crowd together on available public land, until crowding, low success, high fees and complex regulations drive them out.  We are going through Europification, soon only the really dedicated - willing and able to work out year-round to out-hike and out-hunt the rank and file - will be hunting well on public land.  The wealthy will buy their opportunities, the rest (other than the really dedicated mentioned above) will either hunt less frequently, poach more frequently, or quit.

[alecvg]

just wanted to mention last i checked washington still has a 9 day season i know minor discrepancy but i see a lot of you talking about an 8 day season last i checked 2 full weekends and 5 weekdays adds up to 9

That is true, though I still wish it was 3 full weekends. 

In 2007 rifle hunters shot 23262 antlered game, archers got 2384 and the muzzleloaders got 1062.

Ya, I under stand that, I like the long season for archery, and I think the muzzleloader season should be longer, but so should rifle.

[NWBREW]

Are talking success percentage?

yes

[fishunt247]

Jerry, you seem to be wanting an arguement. I'm not an a**hole, but here goes. To claim that rifle hunters need a longer season to enjoy a camp is complete lunacy. That is logic on the same intellecutal/scientific level that the game dept. uses. I've hunted all three weapons for deer, and see very little wrong with the way it is now. A three week rifle season, if it started at the same time as it does now, would push the general hunt into prerut, possibly rut on certain years. We do not have the buck numbers to support a season like that. For the most part (talking mule deer), muzzleloaders have basically the same amount of time as rifle hunters do. The two late seasons--Kahlotus and East Klickitat--are primarily private land units that leaves a regular hunter little opportunity. And giving he bow hunters only 9 days, come on. Getting within 40 yards is a hell of a lot harder than getting within 400 yards, one shot vs. four, stationary only shots vs. running shot possibility. There just is no comparison. Therefore, in my mind and the mind of many, archery seasons are longer and rightly so. It sucks to have a time constraint on deer hunting, we all know that. Everyone on here wishes we could hunt the entire fall. But this state cannot support hunting like that. You keep saying "As a group..." Remember, not everyone on here is a rifle hunter. We are a group of hunters with the interest of deer numbers and each other in mind, not just rifle hunters out for the rights of rifle hunters. Oh and Jerry, you forgot to mention all of the Silver Gray squirrel studies in your area. Ran into a "Catch and Release" Study for them: cage rat traps filled with nuts with the cage door wired shut. I guess they figured if the nuts were gone when they came back, there are Silver Grays in the area. Genuis.

[Jerbear]

Fishunt247

I don't know your age as you don't supply it.  I state mine. I will be 71 in Februay. Lunacy?  Deer camp was a place to get together with old friends and enjoy the season and the camaraderie.  You proably wouldn't enjoy it. Did we kill a lot of deer.  Not really, and it was just a bonus if we got one. When I speak as a group, I am talking to all that hunt.  Not just rifle hunters, but all hunters.  I notice that you are quick to defend the bow hunters.  You better look around my friend.  They are starting to cut you back, at least in this area.  And did I not see a thread just a few days ago, that some bow hunters are going back to modern rifle?  You don't want just 9 days but it is okay for the rifle hunters to only have 9 days.  Really?  We really need to address the game dept as a group, that means all of us and make them prove their  numbers.  They are liars, and cowards.  They would not address all of us.  Notice their surveys?  All the questions are geared toward the answer they want.  I don't bother any more.
The Western Gray squirrels is another story of a waste of money.  I live next to the Klickitat Wildlife Area.  I called the lady in Olympia that was in charge of that program.  It had been going on for 13 years.  I ask to be sent data gathered as a result of the study for 13 years.  I told her I knew that they had put collars on the wrong way and that 30 of the animals died.  She wanted to know how i knew about that.  I would not tell her.  She stated that there was no data, but they were certain that when alarmed, the squirrel would run up a tree to safety.  They also determined that when the food ran out, they moved to another area.  I thanked her and called State Senator Jim Honeyford.  He called and they admitted that they did not have data.  The party was closed down, and as a result we have a lot more squirrels here than when they did their study.  During the study. the traps were wired shut when they were not working the traps.  I did find traps that they forgot about.  The animals had been long deceased.
Well that is about it.  I still have my first hunting license and deer tag.  1954 was the year.  To say I want an argument, and you call what I suggest lunacy, shows  the lack of understanding on your part.  I am suggesting that as a group we need to hold them accountable.  I don't have all the answers, but you sure in the hell don't either.

[fishunt247]

I'm 22, which has nothing to do with being able to enjoy a camp or not. You know right where my dad, brother and I turkey camp. But we camp for practical purposes, not the camaraderie: back to camp around 9pm, eat and bed, get up at 3am and do it again. Maybe we are different and aren't into the the camp thing. I hunt because I love to be outside, because I love the animals, because I love the chase. I don't hunt to hang out with my buddies, and all of the people that I "hunt with" feel the same way. I'm aware of the cutbacks for bowhunters. And in the interest of more deer numbers, I'm all for not shooting does in late season in the Grayback. My ideas for this thread I stated way earlier: 4pt or better in a few traditional trophy areas, 3pt for the rest of them (mule deer), and a some 2pt tags for youth and the elderly. I'm all for addressing the game dept. as hunters, its just that I don't think season lenghts are something that needs to be addressed. And for the record I've muzzleloaded for the last 3 years, early season only, which up until last year only had a 7 day season. I'm used to short seasons.

[Jerbear]

Fishunt we all go out for different reasons.  But my point is this.  We take what they throw us.  I am for holding them to the fire and make them prove to us, not to each other, why we have the short seasons.  I have a friend that is a Wildlife Enforcement Officer.  He stated that  there are biologists in the game dept. that don't hunt or fish, and openly let it be know that they don't want you or I to hunt.  A classic example is this area right here for turkeys.  At one time you could hunt the fall hunt with just your tag.    Then it got changed to draw only, and only 75 tags,  They now give our 150 fall tags.  The biologist for this area has since retired.  Before he did, I ask him why the change?  His answer.  HE thought that too many hens would be killed in the fall hunt.  The state of Missouri had done a 20 year study on this very subject and found that it was pretty well balanced out.That study was available to him at that time.  If you look the WA figures for the fall hunt in this area, you will see that every year there is less than 25 birds killed in this area.  Again, a biologist goes before the commission without any data and gives us a crippling blow.  That is what I am talking about. 
I am sorry you never got to experience a hunting camp. Tons of memories.

[fishunt247]

All I meant by the camp issue is that providing people an adequate amount of time to enjoy a deer camp is not a good reason at all to extend the season length. There are measures to extend your opportunities. Apply for a multiseason tag, they aren't hard to draw. But now we are so far gone from the thread issue.

[PolarBear]

providing people an adequate amount of time to enjoy a deer camp is not a good reason at all to extend the season length. There are measures to extend your opportunities. Apply for a multiseason tag, they aren't hard to draw. But now we are so far gone from the thread issue.

[Jerbear]

You know Fishunt you just want to beat one issue to death.  And you call me an idiot. I am sorry.  You called me a lunatic

[boneaddict]

These are the genetics that I am concerned about being cropped.  Probably a 1.5 year old.  Sporting a 3 when most his age are two points.  Then to top it off he has eyeguards.  He'd be trimmed in a 4 point or better season as well, so I guess counting eyeguards really nails them.....or not since he survived in the Methow in one of the hardest hunted spots there is.

[alecvg]

keep everything the same ,3-point or better,keep the special late hunts,finally the general season is later , the later the better,and if you would like to bag a real wall hanger  hunt the special draw hunts,the hard thing is to get drawn, but if you do  ka-ching the big buck goes down.if you want to only hunt 4-point go ahead and hold out for one,theres plenty where i go,and bigger,not everyone cares about horn,just look at all the doe tags put out every year,now thats a mistake,killing all the good mountain doe,pretty soon there wont be any deer for us to worry about.

I am not worried about getting big bucks, thats not why I want it changed, it will help the health of the herds, its better for the deer.  Plus bigger bucks would be funner.  And also, with doe tags, it depends on the unit, it again helps the deer herds, if there are good buck to doe ratio, which much of Washington does not have.

[Ray]

You know Fishunt you just want to beat one issue to death.  And you call me an idiot. I am sorry.  You called me a lunatic

Definitely sounds wet behind the ears. 

Anyone who does not agree with me is a lunatic and an idiot. Definitely justifies points in a debate quite well.

[boneaddict]

I'm a bit against doe tags myself when the population is down.  I don't like it being used to control buck to doe rations.  I do like it if it is controlling the amount of game on the winter range, or some farm destruction etc.  If you are short bucks, you don't kill the does to make a better ratio.  IMO

[steen]

If the feed is scarce you would shoot does to help the bucks but otherwise it only makes for less fawns next year.