Overcrowding

[Ridgerunner]

When you look at hunter numbers in this state the numbers are significnatly lower for deer hunters from the early 90's.  Yet the perception is that with the general seasons things are very crowded.  What gives?  Is it the 9 day season or as people get older (and more lazy generally) are they being concentrated in easier to use areas? 

[ICEMAN]

Shorter season, locked gates, less open land to hunt, easily accessed  hunter success data = hunter crowding.

[boneaddict]

There used to be alot of private land that you could hunt on without issue.  Now folks are taking advantage of it and charging, such as places like buckrun, and or you have folks moving onto their parcels in the Methow and have strapped up no trespassing signs on new fences where it used to just be roaming sage. 

[Coasthunterjay]

*more housing developments, less public land.....
*Less easier land to hunt. Unless you really want to hunt anything it is going to be a hike.
*people buying more land because it is the thing to do. even if it is only a few acres. again less public land......
*Less land less deer in certain areas....this is what it comes down to......
*People are busy if they work they can only hunt the easy areas so unless you want to do a back country hunt and pack are your gear in you are most likely going to bump into someone while your hunting.....
*or unless yo know someone with private property but so does the next hunter and most the time you cant find property that is big enough to do everything on.......
* but ostly i would say the newer, Better, Bigger developments that everyone loves is taking range lands away which is taking away from deer areas....

MY 2 CENTS

[HighCountry10]

Do you think some sort of permit system would help spread hunters out or are the popular areas always going to be "overcrowded".

[E-Town Hunter]

I second what Bone said. I mentioned this in another thread awhile back. I have seen several areas i remember my uncles taking me when I was first starting to hunt become posted "Private Hunting Club" "No Trespassing Violators will be Prosecuted!" It gets pretty darn frustrating, seems like every year another one of these spots gets post that way. Second, In my experiences the WDFW hunt by written permission program is a joke!

[Colville]

There's really not a private land solution. There's money to be made and it will be exploited. But in other areas road closures or lumber company gates help to concentrate folks. Heck, natural habitat for elk on the East side does it all on it's own, they just aren't found everywhere and everyone wants to hunt them modern firearm.

The thing is it's still true that 90% of hunters are going to hunt within a mile or so of the last place the can park their rig. The gates and closures just keep pushing that lockout point further back toward the populace. I haven't really heard pack hunters lamenting all the crowding. The good news is that if you are willing to pack in on your back there's may be some expanding quality (timber co land not withstanding). I think between fires and habitat considerations truck/trailer/camper/wall tent situations are only going to see an increase in the concentration over time. That won't make them any more dangerous to the herds though so the quality of their experience could drop without any drop in the quality of the herds.

[Ridinshotgun]

Remember when deer hunting , pheasant and waterfoul all opened on the same day? Thats what WDFW needs to go back to! Lets make the hunters choose what the want to hunt on opening weekend. That would help spread the hunting presure out. WDFW is woried about selling hunting license. So we have three different openers. Lets go back to the old way and spread the hunters out! WDFW said they changed things because of hunter conflict. Open all three seasons on the same weekend and that would help over crowding! That means less presure on the game and a better hunting experience! Thats my take!

[Ironhead]

My biggest problem with the over crowding ,most of the youth and senior hunters don't have the option of packing into the back country unless they use a guide - outfitter or have stock. They are grouped into the areas with easier access, should they be punished for being old or young ? Do they deserve a quality hunt ? When my kids were younger they didn't have to shoot a trophy buck, but they also didn't understand why that guy was running up the ridge ahead of us or why they were drinking beer in the back of a truck with there rifles in their hands. (some of the things that I remember cringing about when asked by my kids). The over crowding is not going to get better unless we figure out ways to limit the numbers of hunters in the feild. I hate beating a dead horse here, but it's not getting any better.

[Dman]

 I harp on this constantly, speaking just for myself, I can account for over 30,000.00 acres I used to hunt just in the last 10 years that has been lost to development that I took two bucks out of and spent a good deal of time hunting. Mostly private timberland's, but also National Forest lands. Compounding this are season's cut in half and good old urban sprawl. I know a lot of guys who used to hunt little tiny blocks of State lands once surrounded by woods near suburban areas, that are now surrounded by houses so they have headed higher up in to the hills to hunt. I really don't think you can truly get away from other hunters at this point in Washington, if your lucky enough to draw a limited tag, then perhaps but not during general season's. A lot of hunting has turned into what I call "pinball" AKA Vail Tree farm hunting where if your lucky, the guy on the hill next to you pushes the buck to you, if your not lucky than all you hear is KABOOM all day long over the next hill....

[huntnphool]

Of course its going to look over crowded when you shorten the season to 9 days, thats what I've been saying on here for months. Some of you on here are hypocrites and it cracks me up. First you complain that the deer numbers are low and the amount of mature bucks are low. One of your solutions being, back the season up so less of the mature migrators will be harvested. Then when they move the season back you complain about over crowding, because now all the hunters are crammed into the same week. I have asked this question before and got responses like rediculous, or stupid but at the risk of being bashed on again I will pose it one more time. Why is it that years ago there were far more hunters purchasing tags, the general season went into the second weekend of November, and yet I seldom saw more than a couple other hunters the entire week I was out there? We always tagged nice big deer, and saw loads more. Now, for those that want to argue about the amount of hunters, lets just go back to 1998 to start with. There were 149,000 "deer" hunters according to F&W. 99 there were 152,000, 2000 there were 149,00 again. Even back then, realistically not that long ago, I seldom saw more than a handful of people in a week. Now lets jump up to 06, there were 135,000 "deer" hunters, 14,000 less than 98 and 2000 and in 05 the same, 135,000 "deer" hunters, yet I couldn't walk anywhere without seeing blaze orange in 3 different spots at the same time.

I understand the arguement that leaving the season open into November will take its toll on mature bucks but when so many complain that "the good ole days" are behind us, and yet those "good ole days" had longer seasons and less crowding, how can they possibly complain?

[Dman]

 "We always tagged nice big deer"

 I really think you answered your own question. Not really realistic for everyone to think that type of hunting could continue without something giving eventually. I think for most of us, we've accepted the fact the season's are what they are and DFW has decided it was the best thing. I really don't think extending the season to what it was 20 years ago would help anything. Your talking about a combined few thousand special late permit opportunities, vs. adding 135,000 more hunters to the woods for the same duration or longer. The math speaks for itself. I guess I don't see why some people don't notice the housing development's being put in right under their noses and realize there are consequences, that cracks me up also. 

 I suppose we could try cramming 135k hunters and 135k deer into a 100' by 100' pen outside of Ranier Park by year 2050 for a month in November and call it a season? That seems to be the line of thought here....

[huntnphool]

"people don't notice the housing development's being put in right under their noses and realize there are consequences, that cracks me up also."

I dont see the relevance myself, there havn't been any developments anywhere close to where I hunt. Are you saying that developments have destroyed enough hunting areas in the past 15 years or so to cause us to be over crowded hunting the east side? Perhaps maybe a handful of hunters have had to alter their trips but I cant see it causing the crowding there is now. The crowding is caused by forcing those 135,000 to all hunt the same 9 days, only 4 or which are on weekends, when the majority can get out.

"Your talking about a combined few thousand special late permit opportunities, vs. adding 135,000 more hunters to the woods for the same duration or longer"

Come on, do you think all 135,000 would wait until the last week? I'm not saying they should make the season go through the middle of November, but to the end of Oct. would decrease the crouding substantially. On top of that, decrease the amount of late tags that essentially are concentrating those few thousand permit holders to the heart of the rut.First, I dont believe as many would be needed if the general season went to the end of Oct. most would be happy to hunt later as apposed to have to keep applying for a permit. Second, it would mean less hunters out there during the rut, giving the mature bucks a better chance. The probelm is it would mean a decrease in revenue, and thats really what the permits are for anyway isnt it?

Which causes more damage to the heards, 135,000 spread out from Oct. 13th to Nov.4th or a few thousand hunting in the prime of the rut? Be honest now!


I think the season should go to Oct.31, and decrease the permits to 10 per unit. In addition, make the late archery permit only as well, and maybe make it 20 or so. Then you might have some real trophy hunting.

[boneaddict]

Really the only thing I have ever disagreed with you on.  (late season)
I'm talking about places like Paterson Mtn, Studhorse, Davis Lake, Pipestone, Buckrun, Bear Creek, Places like Texas Creek.  Places like mud lake where you can't access it because someeon owns 10 feet of property that the road has to go through, so they mark it no trespassing and you now don't have access. Hanford where guys bitch to the government because the elk are damaging their crops, but they don't allow hunters.  The WDFW compensates and allows them tags that they then sell for 10,000 each. Black diamond or whatever its called. 

[huntnphool]

You know Bone, I have been seeing lots of new signs, the last few years, in places that really are not private. I suppose it stops all but the people that know the truth. I'm told its not legal for them to do it, but dont know who it is thats posting them.

[boneaddict]

Theres a couple famous ones up in the valley that I have gone rounds with.  Makes Idabooner cringe everytime I drive up I think.  If you sell your ranch to the game department for several million and it is now public land, then how can you post it and patrol it as your own.........

[Dman]

"I think the season should go to Oct.31, and decrease the permits to 10 per unit. In addition, make the late archery permit only as well, and maybe make it 20 or so. Then you might have some real trophy hunting."

 DFW already tried that just before the '96 die off and if you examine harvest success rates, they were actually less in most areas prior to the season's being cut back than anytime afterwards.

 "I dont see the relevance myself, there havn't been any developments anywhere close to where I hunt. Are you saying that developments have destroyed enough hunting areas in the past 15 years or so to cause us to be over crowded hunting the east side?"
 
 -Mountain Star Resort, Methow area golf courses, resorts, summer homes, etc. Wenatchee area, same thing. Each golf course put in over the last 20 years takes up over thousand acres a piece and sometimes several thousand. Mountain Star was fought bitterly and it still went in over critical habitat areas for muleys -I know, I was asked to be a part of that project and declined. Are we still saying the sale of 5-6 thousand acres of NF land's in Wa. every year too isn't happening when we can read it right off of the NF web site? Where do you hunt exactly HP? I can't recall one NE or N Central County that has not lost public and private land habitat in the last 20 years. Perhaps you hunt a private ranch or something?

 

[Lowedog]

phool, the numbers you are qouting are the numbers of hunters that reported.  The amount of tags purchased has stayed about the same at around 165,000 back to 99.  Of course the 9 day season crowds public land some and maybe you are seeing more people in your areas because they have become popular areas.  

I tend to agree with the thought that the loss of some hunting areas due to sale of private land and public land road closures is congregrating hunters some.  I know of an area in Chelan county that is the only legal area guys can ride ATV's into and in the last 10 years it has become absolutly over run with hunters because of other areas they used to hunt are no longer open to ATV's.  I also think for the most part people are lazy and are going to hunt where they can drive and never get far from there rig.  There are many places I hunt in general season where you never see another soul.  Some places that used to be overcrowded 20 years ago nobody goes into.  I don't think nearly as many people pack in on horseback as there used to be.  

The times you are thinking of are so far in the past I don't even see what your point is.  There hasn't been a general season hunt that went into November since when?  The late 80's early 90's  There was a reason that the seasons were cut back and that was to reduce harvest numbers.  In 2002 - 2004 the season went to 14 days.  Did that help to spread the hunters out?  I don't think so.  Most guys who take time off work took the second week off.  The weekends were the same.  

WDFW cut the seasons back in Okanogan County in 2005 because the herds couldn't stand up to the lenghthened season.  I was told at a public input meeting that they felt Chelan County could handle the longer season but that they had to shorten the season there also because they feared all the hunters who normally hunt the Okanogan would hunt the Chelan the second week.  

I really don't think people on here are being hypocritical either.  Most of the discussion has been about a noticed decline in mature bucks in the Entiat.  Most agree also that the numbers of deer are just fine in most places.  Maybe we have become a bit spoiled with what we have seen on the late season tags historically and on the winter range and with a down year like this for big bucks we start to wonder if something is wrong.

I do agree with you that the late archery season needs to go to draw only.  

-Lowedog

[actionshooter]

From a westside view of the overcrowding problem, I believe it has a lot to do with timber companies closing thier gates. I don't remeber the crowding when I was younger and they didn't even have gates to close. I try to ride my bike in but there are usually 2-5 trucks at the gates where I like to hunt. I don't see anyone most of the time but its the idea of people being in there.

[ICEMAN]

From a westside view of the overcrowding problem, I believe it has a lot to do with timber companies closing thier gates. I don't remeber the crowding when I was younger and they didn't even have gates to close. I try to ride my bike in but there are usually 2-5 trucks at the gates where I like to hunt. I don't see anyone most of the time but its the idea of people being in there.

Besides, I really do not like leaving my rig parked for three days down at the gate, where other trucks are coming and going by the highway... Talk about vulnerable....

Just this last elk season we did two nights way back in, left three rigs at the gate. I lost a bit of sleep over it. Expected a rock thru the side window and rummaging. The rest of my elk hunt supplies were in the rig for the rest of the week, hoped it was there upon my return. It was...but still worried.
I am also not a track star, and busting my butt up and in on the friday before the opener put the hurt on me a bit. Didn't really feel it until two days later, on the way down, but this would kill my dad or kids. In this case, I wish the gate was a bit farther into the area, wipe out some of the hill..... (And yes I know, I need to get in better shape....)