Aluminum vs. Carbon

[poohdog]

It prob. been debated before but I still use aluminum.  I was thinking about switching to carbon.  Been looking at the full metal jackets.  Does anyone shoot them and do you have any negative feedback.  I have always shot 2315 xx75's.
Thanks.

[Oneshot1Kill]

I shoot carbon and love em. I had a couple aluminum arrows before for target shooting and they work good for being able to hit something, bend em then bend em back and keep shooting while sometimes the carbons shatter.. But in my opinion Carbons are way better hunting arrows. Don't like the aluminum very much

[bowhuntin]

I switched to the full metal jackets last spring. Great arrows, gave me the added weight on my arrows I wanted, their straight and fly well. No complaints.

[bearhunter99]

Full Metal Jackets are by far the best arrows I have ever shot.  I shoot a Bowtech Tribute at 80# and can almost shoot all the way through a Yellow Jacket target with Slick Trick broadheads and these arrows.  Full pass through both shoulders on a 3 point muley at 38 yards.

[carpsniperg2]

i used them  on new zealand this year were great, i usally shoot goldtips but with my range not going to be more than about 50 yards i got a dozen fletched them up i shoot 4 90 with a 75g 1 1/16" innerloc ate up everything over there that i shot with it. my arrows were 500+- grains 83 lbs x force chewed them up and spit them out but my goldtips are a bit more accurate i did notice not a bunch but some. they are also smaller die than most arrows and they penetrate very good. i will give them a B+

[carpsniperg2]

the ram above was 43 yards went less than 15 yards both lungs and took the opisite shoulder out complete pass threw. my freral goat went about 30 yards and my other ram went about 10 yards took both shoulder and lungs but i still prefer my goldtips

[poohdog]

Thanks guys.  Do you prefer goldtips because they are larger in diameter.  Also do must you guys buy your arrows at a pro shop or else where.

[rooselk]

I definitely prefer carbons for a compound. But I use Easton Legacy aluminum arrows with my Martin Savannah longbow and absolutely love them.

[konrad]

Carbon composite can be very straight and light for the shaft diameter (higher projectile velocity) which translates into flatter shooting and less drop compensation (shorter time of flight). This can be very beneficial when shooting at extended distances as most folks have difficulty in judging drop between 40 and 60 yards.

This begs the question: If most deer are killed at 20 yards, why is flatter shooting so important when the kill zone is an 8 to 10 inch diameter circle? It is common knowledge that pass-through (complete arrow penetration) is nearly a given when using a stoutly constructed, sharp broadhead at 20 yards with any arrow material shot at modern compound speeds.

The very best carbon shafts have a high initial purchase price and it is true that they will return to their original shape well after making a glancing blow.  However, they are susceptible to filler/binder cracking and fiber separation from tip/side impact and nock end damage. Manufacturers of carbon shafts suggest flexing and rolling of the shaft under tension after every shot to reveal fiber/binding filler damage and prevent shaft explosion upon the next firing. It is doubtful many archers practice this precaution but none the less this reflects manufacture’s concerns about prevention of injury to archers and standers by (read that lawsuits). Carbon composite shafts may also become abraded at the point end from being shot into rough targets such as hay. Abrasion can, over time, weaken both shaft strength and spine quality. Today’s hard anodizing of alloy shafts just polishes to a high gloss.

I have used wood, carbon and alloys in archery. I would never consider carbon again without some sort of nock protection (here we are again with the $$$). I have damaged a number of shafts due both nock and point end damage.
For me, nock end damage is more tolerable (it means I’m doing something right, consistently) rather than worrying about shafts collapsing on the point end or being eroded from target friction. That’s it, laugh…hay will do it!

 I now use Easton premium alloy shafts with nock end protection i.e. Easton Super Uni Bushing. The Super Slam shafts are spine retention and straightness guaranteed for 2 years and the X-7’s straightness is unparalleled in carbon unless you are prepared to spend more than twice the money. Those who tout alloy “loosing its spine” should think carefully about metallurgy. Flexing metals get harder with time, not more soft. Logic says those alloy shafts should be gaining stiffness not loosing and Easton Technical confirms my theory. They, by the way, sell a lot of carbon shafts.

It is my contention that the technology needed for composite shaft production is much easier to obtain than for alloy shafts. Therefore more companies are now in the market. Archers are no more resistant to advertising than any other group and so the perceived need to “upgrade” to composite shafts seems imperative. I also believe carbon technology should produce less expensive arrows but advertising hype and archer’s herd mentality has pushed pricing (and profit margins) higher.

I guess if I had corporate sponsorship or was independently wealthy, I would have the most expensive of everything and not be concerned with replacement price. But I still have to work for a living.

Meanwhile, I will content myself with a little longer time of flight, a quieter shot, greater durability and lower replacement cost.

Besides, I like shooting the straightest, cheapest arrow on the firing line!

[724wd]

XX75 2215's for me.  i dont like the outside chance i could end up with carbon slivers in my arm because i didnt flex an arrow before i shot it.  straightness, exact spine, cheap... what's not to love?  speed isn't my main concern, and i only shoot 60 pounds anyway.  judging yardage sure is easy with a rangefinder, and if i dont have time to range it, i dont have time to shoot it!

[seansfire]

XX75 2213 Aluminum with 125 grain field points and 125 grain Thunderheads and i am happy as a clam with em'. I have yet to kill anything but there is still hope for next year.

[Shootmoore]

xx75 2317's for the compound

xx75 2115's for the stick

I like my metal.  It bends or breaks.  Carbon makes me nervous because of the reasons provided by Konrad.  Besides with my shooting skills I would burn $40 or $50 a shooting session if I was shooting carbon 

Shootmoore

[Todd_ID]

Good write up Konrad! 

My input is that I shoot carbon because I like the fact that the arrow is either good or broke; there is no middle ground.  To get good broadhead flight, you have to have a straight arrow, and many of the problems we had in the past were from slightly bent arrows that looked ok and spun in our fingers ok but wouldn't group with the rest.  You have to hit something pretty solid to ruin an Easton Axis arrow, and whatever it was that you hit to ruin it would surely have ruined an aluminum arrow as well.  I like the new carbons; aluminum is without a doubt more accurate right out of the box, but 500 shots later is when the carbons shine.  The best target archers in the world shoot aluminum because of this and the fact that they don't have to buy their arrows, somebody else is paying for them; most of us don't have that luxury, so we need durability, and carbon wins that match.

[xXx Archery]

I would not say X-7's are cheap..at $96.99 dz...when Axis arrows are 111.99 dz.
X7's are great arrows ...but if you shoot groops with your arrows they will dent and bend
if you had a bow with a IBO rating of 320 fps at 28" of draw and shooting 70lbs.
shooting Aluminum
Total Arrow Weight: 540
Bow IBO Speed: 320
Adjustment for Draw Length: -20
Adjustment for Draw Weight: 0
Adjustment for Arrow Weight: -63
Adjustment for Weight on String: -3
Calculated Speed: 234 fps
 
Kinetic Energy: 65.67

now with Carbon
Total Arrow Weight: 410
Bow IBO Speed: 320
Adjustment for Draw Length: -20
Adjustment for Draw Weight: 0
Adjustment for Arrow Weight: -20
Adjustment for Weight on String: -3
Calculated Speed: 277 fps
 
Kinetic Energy: 69.87

you can gain 40+ in speed and over 4flbs of Kinetic Energy

that is way most guys like Carbon...but bolth arrows are good and will do the job

[konrad]

Kinetic energy has been used in the marketing of center fire ammunition for many years. When it comes to the really big game (the kind that will come over, stomp on you, then walk off, leaving only a muddy spot on the ground with a couple of boots left over) the answer always comes down to penetration.

Large, heavy projectiles of stout construction have a much better chance of actually penetrating heavy resistance, continuing in a straight line and then damaging vital organs.
Many hunters who read a lot of stories about killing Jumbo with a 7 X 57 mm Mauser proved the fallacy of high velocity/kinetic energy theory with the loss of their lives.

Now, we see the same marketing strategy in the archery industry.

It is true that Whitetails don’t require a 375 Holland and Holland Belted Rimless Nitro Magnum and many have fallen to the venerable 22 rim fire; however, when I am hunting, I rest more comfortably in the thought that should I have the chance to fire, I will be dragging a carcass in short order.

I would rather punch a small hole all the way through than a large one in a shoulder muscle.

If you need to “shoot to forty yards with one pin”, my feeling is you need a range finder.
All this begs the question, if the vast majority of deer are slain within 20 yards, why are we so obsessed with shooting at deer at 60 yards? Even if the bow could do that, I don’t believe the majority of archers (I know, I know, I too can shoot a 5 inch group at 50 yards…on the range) are competent to be attempting those shots at game we are supposed to respect.

The race for speed is interesting but essentially irrelevant when one is concerned with killing at close range.

Penetration is paramount in this game.
In my humble opinion…
KL

PS  I only gave $50 a dozen for my X7 shafts.

[xXx Archery]

well I shoot 1 pin out to 40...and thats all I have is one pin and my 410 grain arrow at 60lbs blew threw my 5pt elk like butter. 3 bulls we shot this year with a 410 grain arrow never stayed in the bulls all pass threws on a 4pt, 5pt and a 6pt
why do I need a range finder? I know what is under forty..the last 3 bull have all been under 25 yards. with 1 pin I never aim with the wrong pin...50.00 for X7's im sure you did not get them new as we as dealers have Min pricing as what we can sell for and that is less than I as a Dealer pay. 

[poohdog]

Just a question xXx what bow do you shoot and are you a few inches high under 40 yards.  Thanks

[xXx Archery]

Just a question xXx what bow do you shoot and are you a few inches high under 40 yards.  Thanks

Yes I shoot a PSE Omen 28" draw at 60lbs shooting 301fps with a 410 grain arrow ...I set my sight for 32 yards and Im 2" high at 20 and about 5-6 low at 40
Most your shots and Elk on the WET side are 40 and under...it is so nice to just aim with one pin..Black Gold can out with a NEW sight this year a 0ne pin slider and a 3 pin slider...for 149 and 159...great price ...that will be my new sight this year.

[konrad]

Way to go XXX!
It sounds like you really have it nailed.
I can only wish I were so proficient. I'm still on the starting end of that bell curve as my rig only chugs my 490 grain arrow at 240 fps.
Maybe I should consider PSE next time?

[carpsniperg2]

i am right with XXX i shoot my pse x force 83lbs with my normal goldtips with montec at 425 at about 318fps i shoot one pin to 40 yards. about 2" high at 20 and 3.5" low at 40 is great i shoot 5 pin matrix but other than 3d shoots i have yet to use my 2nd pin. when i shoot me 3d setup i run around 335fps. great bow i am a huge pse fan.

[xXx Archery]

Way to go XXX!
It sounds like you really have it nailed.
I can only wish I were so proficient. I'm still on the starting end of that bell curve as my rig only chugs my 490 grain arrow at 240 fps.
Maybe I should consider PSE next time?

PSE...no ...we all know that there are a bunch of great bows ...as for me being so proficient ..YES.. I have a combo that works for ME....and it sound like YOU have things working to. ...you and I both know that any bow and any arrow will kill...it's still up to US the hunter...Just remember Im NOT saying you are wrong...its OK if YOU dont like what I shoot..

[Intruder]

My 

I agree with you in the argument regarding KE, Konrad.  It is a measurement that can be very misleading and gets thrown around way too much (firearms and bows).  People have tried to equate it to killing power, knock down power, etc, etc.  For the most point it's hogwash.  Putting holes in vital organs is the way you kill things. 

Where I tend to disagree or maybe should I say agree with XXX is in the superiority of carbon when it comes to being able to shoot flatter... essentially achieve a higher margin of error if you will.  To some degree, it's like shooting a bullet w/ a better BC.

Without turning this into a long range archery debate it suffices to say that Konrad's point about shooting a deer are perfectly accurate.  It doesn't really matter.... just like it doesn't matter if you shoot a deer at 100 yards w/ a 243 or a 338.  You put the bullet where it belongs... result: dead deer. 

However, things change when you start talking stretching those distances out to 40 yards.  With carbon a guy is able to shoot out to a farther distance with a higher margin of error because that arrow is shooting flatter, arriving there quicker, being influenced less by wind and (theoretically, although I've never seen any data to support this) doing it quieter than you could w/ aluminum.

[longstevo]

*resuscitating an old thread*

So the general feedback that I'm reading between carbon vs aluminum arrows boils down to this:

Carbon:
More expensive
Better performance
Somewhat fragile once the arrows loses its shape

Aluminum:
Cheaper
Lesser performance
More durable, able to bend back to shape once imperfections take place

Does that sound about right?
I'm a brand new archery shooter, although I'm not hunting archery this year.  I know next to nothing about arrows.

[coachcw]

i am right with XXX i shoot my pse x force 83lbs with my normal goldtips with montec at 425 at about 318fps i shoot one pin to 40 yards. about 2" high at 20 and 3.5" low at 40 is great i shoot 5 pin matrix but other than 3d shoots i have yet to use my 2nd pin. when i shoot me 3d setup i run around 335fps. great bow i am a huge pse fan.

your a little light carp.     I have shoot from 100th lbs and 750 grain aluminum to 62 lbs and 420 carbons. With today's bow technology   a 420 grain carbon at 310  fps out of a 70 lbs bow is wicked deadly.

[Fullabull]

How do you bend aluminum arrow back into shape? Can't imagine you can get any arrow to spin true after any damage! I shot aluminum when younger and shooting recurve bow. But now with the new technologies, I shoot the fmj and love it's performance! Get better penetration than anyone I see at the range.

[Jellymon]

I shoot carbons and flex them after pulling from targets. I dont want this to be me.

[Fullabull]

Ouch !!!!!

[longstevo]

Eh...

So aluminum it is then.

[Band]

Am I the only one who is surprised where this topic is heading?  I honestly thought aluminum arrows had gone the way of the dodo bird and the vcr. 

I can say that from my aluminum experience of yesteryear they were easily bent and not fixable for straightness.  If you ever missed the target you could kiss your arrow good bye.  My experience with carbon has been far better in terms of durability.

[longstevo]

Huh.  No I'm thoroughly confused.  I've read on other forums where different guys swear by one or the other. 

I guess its kind of like the argument of .45 ACP vs. 40 cal pistols...

[h20hunter]

Carbon all the way. Performance is outstanding compared to aluminum. I'd like to hear from Rad on this.....what would, if any, benefit be from using alum instead of carbon.

[dreamingbig]

Goldtip pros here... They are very durable and last longer for me than aluminum would.

[dscubame]

Chevy or Ford?

[Rainier10]

Full metal jackets for me, they work great with my bow, no complaints.

[Fullabull]

I would never use Aluminum again. FMJ's are awesome, can't see using anything else until I run out of them which won't be for a few years. By then the FMJ will probably be replaced by something better.

[longstevo]

Chevy or Ford?

Haha, right? 

[zike]

How do you bend aluminum arrow back into shape? Can't imagine you can get any arrow to spin true after any damage! I shot aluminum when younger and shooting recurve bow. But now with the new technologies, I shoot the fmj and love it's performance! Get better penetration than anyone I see at the range.

When I shot target archery in the 70's, we had a jig with a dial indicator to check arrows and it was easy to straighten the ones that needed it.

[blackveltbowhunter]

Carbon all the way. Performance is outstanding compared to aluminum. I'd like to hear from Rad on this.....what would, if any, benefit be from using alum instead of carbon.

  I am sure RAD would have some great info 

  My experience is that aluminum wins the specs to money ratio every time. Comparing XX75  (.002 straightenss ) to Easton Axis (.003 ) and doing a quick sweep through ebay. On average it appeared that the XX75 were roughly 1/2 the price of Axis. So with aluminum it seems you get the tightest arrow for your money. The question is do you need that tight of spec out of a hunting arrow? Who knows.. each individual must decide that. My personal arrow is .001 straightness and IMO the difference shows. They also cost 3x as much as aluminum. Not as big of a deal to me now, as it would of been when first taking up bowhunting as back then I went through arrows seemingly 3x as fast. 

[acorn]

I shot the Easton FMJ for two years. Killed two nice bucks with them, pass throughs on both. However this summer I noticed by grouping were getting bigger. I messed with my bow for months trying to figure out what it was. Paper tuned, bare-shaft tuned, tried everything, but still didn't have tight groups like I wanted. Finally the last thing I checked, which should have been the first, was spin my arrows, 7 out of 9 were bent. I've obviously never had that problem with carbon. Thus I went back to gold tip all carbon, slightly larger diameter shafts, but shooting much tighter groups.