Ceder River Hatchery

[huntnphool]

Well after years and years its finally going to happen, the city of Renton was finally given the go ahead and funds to build a hatchery on the Ceder River, they say it should be up and running in 5 years. I am going to assume that the sockeye will be a target of theirs but have not heard if they plan on rearing steelhead, chinook or coho. If managed properly we should have a Lake Washington sockeye fishery every year, and potentially could have a great run of each species depending on how large the hatchery will be and whether or not they rear anything besides sockeye.

[Shootmoore]

Nice!

Speaking of hatcheries, the Colvilles are supposed to break ground on there hatchery on the Columbia this spring.  IF they can get good workers for the hatchery it should make the okanogan and upper columbia a premier fishery for salmon.

Shootmoore

[fishcrazy]

Nice!

Speaking of hatcheries, the Colvilles are supposed to break ground on there hatchery on the Columbia this spring.  IF they can get good workers for the hatchery it should make the okanogan and upper columbia a premier fishery for salmon.

Shootmoore

I have been following this for about a year. I'm looking forward to what it should do for the lower river below the BIG WALL. I was told they are going to plant both spring and summer nookie. Not sure of the return numbers they are hopeing to get.

Kris

[Shootmoore]

Nice!

Speaking of hatcheries, the Colvilles are supposed to break ground on there hatchery on the Columbia this spring.  IF they can get good workers for the hatchery it should make the okanogan and upper columbia a premier fishery for salmon.

Shootmoore

Springs, Summers and they are bouncing the idea of coho as well.  I'm not sure what there eact return goals are.  But I do know that it is a higher production number than the 4 state hatcheries in the Wells complex combined.  IF they can get the springer numbers up and the State allows us to fish them it could be a huge spring/summer run through the Columbia. 

Shootmoore

I have been following this for about a year. I'm looking forward to what it should do for the lower river below the BIG WALL. I was told they are going to plant both spring and summer nookie. Not sure of the return numbers they are hopeing to get.

Kris

[huntnphool]

If done right Lake Washington should be full of decent fish year around.

[Shootmoore]

If done right Lake Washington should be full of decent fish year around.

Who's going to be running the hatchery?  The city, state or a private outfit?

Shootmoore

[huntnphool]

No idea

[Shootmoore]

No idea

Ok sure make me do my own research.  It is a replacement hatchery for the one that opened in 1991.  Its paid for by Seattle Public Utilities and run by the wdfw.  To be completed in 2011.  Production capacity will be 34 million fry.  We will see if the bio's will allow them to produce that many.  Most state hatcheries don't produce anything close to production capacity do to the bio's desire to protect "wild stock".  But I am always exicited to see upgrades and capacity increases in our hatcheries.  To bad they are talking about shutting down other hatcheries and contiunue to cut production numbers.

Shootmoore

[huntnphool]

Production capacity will be 34 million fry.  We will see if the bio's will allow them to produce that many.  Most state hatcheries don't produce anything close to production capacity do to the bio's desire to protect "wild stock".

Sounds like they will be able to rear more thsn just sockeye, that would be fantastic, although I am really excited that the sockeye fishery could be a lot more frequent.

[Dmanmastertracker]

 I have read in the past that one function of the hatchery will be to help rear wild chinook in the Cedar and of course sockeye. As dismal as the returns have been to the lake system, it will still take many years to build those numbers back up even with a new hatchery, they are still at a loss to explain the very high mortality of Lake Wa. sockeye in recent years.

[O_mykiss]

Nothing like a bunch of non-native sockeye to spread disease and stamp out the last of those pesky wild Cedar River steelhead.......oh, maybe some increased competition from hatchery zombit steelhead smolts will be the final kick to the teeth....go WDFW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[huntnphool]

So what are you saying mykiss, you are not for the hatchery?

[O_mykiss]

I understand the social need for the hatchery....salmon=good, no salmon=bad. Its just that millions of dollars will be spent keeping a non-native and artificial run of fish going (maybe) to support a fishery that is not historically very solvent when it comes to actually providing oppurtunity. Its got a 99.9% chance of becoming just another hole to pour money in.

 A new hatchery won't change the survival of the sockeye in the river,Lake Washington, or Puget sound/Pacific. WDFW already releases 17 million plus fry per year(at least thats the goal). Being able to rear more fry and conseqently release more fry is a dead end. There is not a linear relationship of input to returns and in fact, there might be the reverse relationship in most cases....

There ARE however, three native species of Onchorhynchus in the river already (Fall chinook, coho and steelhead) that are basically on life support. Money would be much better spent on habitat issues in the lower Cedar (which all these fish rely on) than ramrodding sockeye into the Cedar in perpetuity...

These native fishes will certainly not benefit from a new sockeye hatchery and especially won't benefit from hatchery supplementation to "recover" their numbers....research in the last decade+ has shown time and time again that hatcheries produce inferior product as compared to wild production and, in fact, lower the fitness of wild production fish. Look at what is happening on the Quillayute system RIGHT NOW...The Snyder Creek "supplementation" steelhead returning right now that were ment to provide oppurtunity for sportsmen contracted IHN in the hatchery as smolts, were released anyway, and now are interbreeding and infecting wild fish as we speak.

It is ludicris to continue to expect that hatcheries are the answer to our problems... especially in the light of the historical poor performance of the Cedar sockeye hatchery...especially in light of evidence that suggests hatcheries lower the fitness of wild fish and especially with the potential demise of steelhead on our coast looming as a direct result of hatchery influence and the incompetence of WDFW and tribes at the helm. 

So no, I'm not in favor of the hatchery.

[fishseeker]

i would be willing to bet that you are also against GOD FORGIVE ME "Eating a fish"!!! Fish with nothing but a Fly Rod and wear a dandy looking hat as you do.

[huntnphool]

Well thanks for posting your opinion mykiss, I don't agree myself but to each his own.

[rougheye]

I think Kiss is right in that the wild fish will suffer but unfortunatly that doesnt really matter anymore . I think the hatcheries are great for washington because they manage so poorly anyways . The wild runs in the cedar will never come back . I doubt they will have a sockeye run every year though , there is alot more to it than just putting more smolt out there . Another money grab for the state , look how much money they pull in when they open it   

[nwlynx22]

True, hatcheries are spendy but they not only provide fish they provide a stimulus to local business. I live in a small town on a big river with a great hatch and we would be crushed if not for fisherman and hatchery fish supporting us. We may never see record runs of natives again. Then again you never know some fish is better then no fish.

[Shootmoore]

I think mykiss's ideology on this is one of the ideologies working its way through the WDFW at this time, and I would venture to guess that mykiss is a Bio for the WDFW or knows one, as this ideology sounds exactly what is being propagated in the wdfw.

In case people don't know, there are clicks in the WDFW now that want to close down all the hatchery's and go to a wild run only.  While it sounds like a neat idea in the ideological sense with rose colored glasses firmly in place, it would spell the end of fishing as we know it in Washington.  Today Washington State can no longer support fishing on a wild run only.  The human population in this state and fishing pressure by the big 4 commercial, tribal, poachers and sportsman would wipe out a wild only attempt.  To control this here is my thought on the order that the pressure would be cut.  Sportsman first, as this would be the easiest, then commercial that would leave the last 2 that the state could not do anything about.

No hatcheries today would mean no fishing by you and I.

Shootmoore

[Dmanmastertracker]

I understand the social need for the hatchery....salmon=good, no salmon=bad. Its just that millions of dollars will be spent keeping a non-native and artificial run of fish going (maybe) to support a fishery that is not historically very solvent when it comes to actually providing oppurtunity. Its got a 99.9% chance of becoming just another hole to pour money in.

 A new hatchery won't change the survival of the sockeye in the river,Lake Washington, or Puget sound/Pacific. WDFW already releases 17 million plus fry per year(at least thats the goal). Being able to rear more fry and conseqently release more fry is a dead end. There is not a linear relationship of input to returns and in fact, there might be the reverse relationship in most cases....

There ARE however, three native species of Onchorhynchus in the river already (Fall chinook, coho and steelhead) that are basically on life support. Money would be much better spent on habitat issues in the lower Cedar (which all these fish rely on) than ramrodding sockeye into the Cedar in perpetuity...

These native fishes will certainly not benefit from a new sockeye hatchery and especially won't benefit from hatchery supplementation to "recover" their numbers....research in the last decade+ has shown time and time again that hatcheries produce inferior product as compared to wild production and, in fact, lower the fitness of wild production fish. Look at what is happening on the Quillayute system RIGHT NOW...The Snyder Creek "supplementation" steelhead returning right now that were ment to provide oppurtunity for sportsmen contracted IHN in the hatchery as smolts, were released anyway, and now are interbreeding and infecting wild fish as we speak.

It is ludicris to continue to expect that hatcheries are the answer to our problems... especially in the light of the historical poor performance of the Cedar sockeye hatchery...especially in light of evidence that suggests hatcheries lower the fitness of wild fish and especially with the potential demise of steelhead on our coast looming as a direct result of hatchery influence and the incompetence of WDFW and tribes at the helm.  

So no, I'm not in favor of the hatchery.

 Balderdash, the entire natural spawning run of Sockeye on the Duwamish of several hundred thousand fish was established by hatchery strays from Rivers like the Cedar, prior to any hatchery production on the Duwamish.

[jackelope]

Sounds like a scientific evidence opinion versus a "I wanna go fishing" opinion(with a little fish worms thrown in). This conversation could go on for months.

The Cedar has turned into a toilet for poachers and general pukes doing whatever they feel like doing on the river(maybe ever since they re-opened it to trout fishing). Someone ought to consider doing something to clean up the river and it's poaching issues before they move to increase the success rate of said poachers.
 

[Dmanmastertracker]

 "A new hatchery won't change the survival of the sockeye in the river,Lake Washington, or Puget sound/Pacific". I'm pretty up to speed on all the latest studies on survival of these fish and up to this point it has been inconclusive what has caused the decline in numbers of Sockeye, most scientist's believe it has been the El Nino current's prohibiting return, as far as anything I've read, blaming any kind of existing hatchery production is grabbing at straws. This River system was studied heavily for over a decade before this decision was made, on potential impacts to native chinook, the biggest opponent's were not in fact scientist's, but were purist group's of fishermen and local's. The decision had absolutely nothing to do with anything other than trying to preserve a run that has all but disappeared in recent year's, something had to be done and it wasn't a knee-jerk reaction.

 Creating more fish on the Cedar isn't going to create more tweaker's, that is a law enforcement issue, they are there 24-7 now.... We should have two different types of "cleanups" on local rivers...

[Dmanmastertracker]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/othersports/2010814655_outn17.html

 A good read on it, note the entire run was artificially created from Baker Lake stock...

[jackelope]

"A new hatchery won't change the survival of the sockeye in the river,Lake Washington, or Puget sound/Pacific". I'm pretty up to speed on all the latest studies on survival of these fish and up to this point it has been inconclusive what has caused the decline in numbers of Sockeye, most scientist's believe it has been the El Nino current's prohibiting return, as far as anything I've read, blaming any kind of existing hatchery production is grabbing at straws.

I think your statement solidifies his statement here. in other words...he's saying the hatchery isn't gonna help more sockeye survive, which is pretty much what you're saying. I see no straw grabbing at all.

Creating more fish on the Cedar isn't going to create more tweaker's, that is a law enforcement issue, they are there 24-7 now.... We should have two different types of "cleanups" on local rivers...

agreed, thats why i said:
The Cedar has turned into a toilet for poachers and general pukes doing whatever they feel like doing on the river(maybe ever since they re-opened it to trout fishing). Someone ought to consider doing something to clean up the river and it's poaching issues before they move to increase the success rate of said poachers.
putting more fish in the river is gonna give the current poachers an increased success ratio....awesome.
I have fished the cedar 2 times since it reopened to fishing a few years ago. there's some awesome trout in there to be caught. the 2nd time I was there a few years agosomebody shot a hole in the door of my bud's brand new Duramax truck. I haven't been back since. not really the point of this discussion i realize...just further evidence of the quality individuals the wdfw will be feeding with this hatchery on the river.
p.s. I'm not a elitist purist anything, nor am i against the hatchery.

[Tealer]

I am all for new hatcheries. Down where I am at along the lower Columbia they want to ban them. The sad thing is in MOST rivers/streams wild fish is a myth. When the dams went in it destroyed habitat, and we over fished them. It is really sad, but a fact of life. Most WILD fish are hatchery escapees offspring. Hence no clipped fin, there are studies that I have read that suggest that the offspring of the escapees are as strong as wild fish. It has more to do with being raised in the wild and their diet then genetics. But there are people who believe other wise. A hatchery puts more fish in the river that may sustain themselves but you need to fix habitat.

[Dmanmastertracker]

 Josh, I was trying to state that a hatchery would improve ocean survival, simply with more fish being put into the system.

 Sorry to hear about your truck .


 There are two issue's related to this, I will never agree with; A) Hatchery fish are different genetically from wild fish, and B) Introducing more hatchery fish into any system is detrimental to native fish when done correctly. There are benefits to native fish from adding more hatchery fish to the mix. Native steelhead smolt will feed on Sockeye frye, additionally, the more species in any given river and number of fish in that system, being a former WRIA Rep., I know that funding is more available for habitat improvements for more "productive" streams. If a stream only supports (X) amount of fish, the need for habitat spending is reduced, the more the merrier.

[kbyers]

Most WILD fish are hatchery escapees offspring. Hence no clipped fin, there are studies that I have read that suggest that the offspring of the escapees are as strong as wild fish.

I have fished for steelhead above McNary 9 of the last 14 days and let me share some of my observations real quick.  In those 9 days we have caught 3 hatchery fish and over 55 wild fish.  I have seen 4 other hatchery fish caught.  The largest 2 hatchery fish caught were 12.5 lbs and 11 lbs.  My largest wild fish was about 9.5 lbs.  The average fish was 25-27 inches and caught 4 or 5 under 20.

So I started to wonder, how many hatchery fish never get their fin clipped?  And I guarantee the number of non clipped hatchery fish is higher with the fish that the tribes release.  It is really hard to net and release

[jackelope]

there are lots of hatchery fish that don't get clipped on purpose.