If the East Side Went to Permit Only!!!

[colockumelk]

Bearpaw I agree.  If something works in a state that is similar to ours then go with what obviously works.  Ours obviously does not.  And for the record I am a HUGE fan of your idea.  I see some small problems such as how and which GMU's do you leave OTC and which ones to you make permit only.  Also would the Permit only areas see a large increase in amount of permits given out?  But again this is why I'm glad people are inserting their well thought out ideas.  Again I like your plan alot. 

So maybe leave the NE corner of WA OTC.  I don't know much about the Blues so I wont speculate on how to split that up.  Make the classic Colockum GMU's (251, 328 and 329) permit only but leave GMU 335 and 249 OTC.

In the Yakima GMU's maybe make the high country places such as GMU's 364, 356, 346 and 336 Permit only.  Then leave the lower GMU's OTC such as 368, 360, 352, 340, and 342.   

I think that coul work. 

[bearpaw]

Bearpaw I agree.  If something works in a state that is similar to ours then go with what obviously works.  Ours obviously does not.  And for the record I am a HUGE fan of your idea.  I see some small problems such as how and which GMU's do you leave OTC and which ones to you make permit only.  Also would the Permit only areas see a large increase in amount of permits given out?  But again this is why I'm glad people are inserting their well thought out ideas.  Again I like your plan alot. 

So maybe leave the NE corner of WA OTC.  I don't know much about the Blues so I wont speculate on how to split that up.  Make the classic Colockum GMU's (251, 328 and 329) permit only but leave GMU 335 and 249 OTC.

In the Yakima GMU's maybe make the high country places such as GMU's 364, 356, 346 and 336 Permit only.  Then leave the lower GMU's OTC such as 368, 360, 352, 340, and 342.   

I think that coul work. 

I think you are on the right track, I do know it would be nice to see some trophy management in 1 or 2 NE units....

You may have just opened the next can of worms by asking which units remain Open and which to make LE...

[colockumelk]

You may have just opened the next can of worms by asking which units remain Open and which to make LE...

That's what I do best.    

[Elkaholic daWg]

So to dispell one rumor is that IF (big if) it went to permit only you WOULD get drawn 3.41 times more for a big bull permit than you did before.  I think IF (big if) it went to permit only people would eventually embrace it because it would be quality hunting once again
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  Okay so I guess that would mean that out of the 14 years (including this year) I would have been able to hunt the colockum ( or eastside) 3 times since 1996. I really don't see that as something that would keep me or many of the members of our camp hunting in this state.
  Being an old timer on this site at 55 looking out into the future I would also not see too many trips left if I did stay in the state.
 I have also seen in other posts on this site CE where you are advocating the need for more road closures too. As an old timer I can say that I have driven just about every road that has already been closed a few times. I have driven into the west bar, I have driven from the North fork Tarpiscan to the Brewton road on the powerlines, the wood and steel lines from 4 corners Naneum/ Jumpoff down to the Coleman Rd. Down Ingersoll its full length,The Petit from Colokum pass to the powerlines near Stray gulch. We were hunting the Colockum pre 1971 when the area between colockum and Brewton roads when it was an open hunting area.There really aren't many left to close that wouldn't pack us all in too tight.
  I see your point whereas permit only would create a conservation situation where the tribes would  not be accorded thier treaty (advantages) rights,and that would be a GREAT thing. Isn't there another way?
 As I have stated before I have a big problem with what DNR has done up there by logging out too much of any cover the animals coud have had making survival rates better than they are. We were much better of with the Colockum wildlife area than we are with the Naneum state forest. Plus we have WDFW swapping more forested higher areas of cover for shrub steppe wide open lower country. ALL about the money (Logs) isn't it?
  That is our state leadership which LOVES to limit it's citizens activities as much as they can get away  with. So should we now welcome such limitations on our elk hunting? Don't forget we have the Wolf issue coming down the road, We as hunters would become even a smaller minority (Since Many would give it up and not introduce younger generations to our sport) to the anti hunters, and when a liberal gets thier foot in the door what thier Natural tendancy is.
  Does anyone here remember the early/late elk tags? that keeps the number of permit applicants down ( oops...less revenue- higher App fees maybe)  and lowers the number of hunters in the field on opening day of general season once again giving the critters a better chance of survival.  My .02

[colockumelk]

The Colockum is a unique PMU.  I'll assume you hunt with a rifle Elkdawg.  There would be way, way, way more permits given out than is currently the case.  Because so many of it's spikes are slaughtered year after year (not the case in the Yakima GMU's) if it went to permit only the additional amount of permits given out would far exceed the Yakima GMU's.  For instance for the Colockum it would go as follows.

Current Rifle Permits: 6.  Proposed Permit Only:  301.  IE 50 times more permits each year.
ML Permits:  1    Proposed Permit Only:  64 permits IE 64 times more permits each year
Archery Permits: 4  Proposed Permit Only: 287  IE 70 times more permits

Now compare this to a unit such as a Yakima GMU 364 Rimrock.  Which has a decent Spike Recruitment Rate.

Rifle Permits: 118   Proposed Permits:  211    IE 1.8 times more permits
ML Permits: 16    Proposed Permits:  30 IE 1.9 times more permits
Archery Permits: 111  Proposed Permits:  166 IE 1.5 times more permits

This also shows where a permit only system would make sense in the Colockum herd but wouldn't make as much sense in the Yakima Herd.

[sako223]

I see the 50-70 times more tags equaling about 650 tags. What is the minus figure?  How many OTC tag hunters are displaced?
Math figures for likely draw rates look good on paper but as our draw system has shown here and other states, some people just get lucky with several tags in a row while others can go a decade without.
A friend waited years for an any bull tag and hunted hard every day only to take a spike at dark last day.
Many guys will never draw a sheep tag but some have received more than one with raffles and draws. I heard one guy has won three.

[MtnMuley]

I'm with you colockumelk.  You've put in some effort (damn good) on this topic.

[colockumelk]

I see the 50-70 times more tags equaling about 650 tags. What is the minus figure?  How many OTC tag hunters are displaced?
Math figures for likely draw rates look good on paper but as our draw system has shown here and other states, some people just get lucky with several tags in a row while others can go a decade without.
A friend waited years for an any bull tag and hunted hard every day only to take a spike at dark last day.
Many guys will never draw a sheep tag but some have received more than one with raffles and draws. I heard one guy has won three.

It would displace hunters but IMHO so what?  That herd under current conditions can not handle a general season.  Do you think the 5 year trend which has seen the branch bull population decline by 70% is going to stop if nothing is changed?  If the trend continues the herd will not have a viable breeding population by 2014.  In which case the herd itself will cease to exist soon thereafter.  So despite the fact that a herd is literally about to be killed off, we should still be able to have a general season?  We have the right to hunt but we don't have the right to kill off a herd.

As far as you saying my stats look good on paper but not in reality.  Math doesn't lie.  Statistics don't lie.  If you give out 70 times more tags you WILL get drawn alot more.  That's, Math, that's Science and Statistics 101.  More tags = Better draw odds.  Nobody can refute that. 

[bobcat]

I'm in total agreement with your plan, Colockumelk, but it seems drawing odds might not be quite as good as your numbers indicate. Reason being is that wouldn't you expect to get a lot more people applying for special permits if there is no longer a general season? I could see the number of applicants doubling. But I really have no idea, as I don't know how many people who now hunt the spike general season apply for special permits. Maybe most of them do and in that case, you're numbers won't be that far off. But still, even if it takes longer to draw than your estimates, as you just said in your last post, so what? We can't just killing elk under the idea that it is our "right" to hunt.

[sako223]

It would displace hunters but IMHO so what?

Could be thousands of unhappy folks leaving the system. If we lean to hard that way we can easily become more wildlife viewing oriented.

If you give out 70 times more tags you WILL get drawn alot more.

In general someone will get drawn. No one can guarantee that each person putting in will get drawn every 3.41 years.
It is called draw odds for a reason.
5 rocks added to a bucket each year for five years equals 25 rocks. That's math.
5 permit apps each year for 5 years could be 0 drawn. that's projection.

[colockumelk]

Thanks Bobcat.  Obviously someone would not in this case get drawn 70x more often.  Because yes some others would start applying for that unit if it went permit only.  But, the Colockum wouldn't be a once in a life time tag like it is now (figuratively)  

The main problem with the Colockum herd is that yearling bull recruitment is far worse than the Yakima herd.  Like I said before on average only 15-20% of yearling bulls live through the hunting season.  Compared to the Yakima herd which sees about twice that live through the hunting season.  There are four main reasons for this.

#1 The Colockum herd is not nearly as migrational as the Yakima herd is.  The Yakima herd tends to stay high during the summer and then progressively move down depending on the weather.  So a good hunting season is dependant on weather.  The Colockum herd tends to stay down low.  And in fact 2/3 of the herd stays near the Coffin Reserve.  So no matter what the bulk of the herd is found down low.  

#2 It's very Open.  Compared to the Yakima herd it's very open.  While many of the Yakima units are very open as well, most of the Yakima elk are still found up high in the thick stuff during hunting season.  In the Colockum many are down low where hunters have a distinct advantage in the open.

#3 Road Access.  There is far too much road access in the Colockum.  The vast amount of road access doesn't give the elk very many places to hide.  There isn't any place to escape to.  Couple that with the openness of the terrain and they can't hide very well from our optics.

#4 There twice as many hunters per square mile in the Colockum as there is in the Yakima GMU's.

[Elkaholic daWg]

[quote
#3 Road Access.  There is far too much road access in the Colockum.  The vast amount of road access doesn't give the elk very many places to hide.  There isn't any place to escape to.  Couple that with the openness of the terrain and they can't hide very well from our optics.





 There it is again. Could you give us an idea exactly which roads you would propose be CLOSED?

[colockumelk]

Yeah the first thing to do is PHYSICALLY close the roads that have already been closed down.  I see roads up there with the "no motor vehicles beyond this point" signs and they all have one thing in comon.  Lots and lots of ATV tracks on it.  So physically closing those already closed roads would be a good step.  And yes I've heard the lame excuse that that would do nothing becuase guys would drive around the barriers.  Yes people will find a way.  However guys that drive on closed roads are breaking the law and are CRIMINALS that should be fined very heavily.  It will deter a good amount of guys though.

[colockumelk]

The second thing to do is look at a map at all those roads that go into every little ravine and gully.  If you look at a map of the Colockum there's connecting roads and spur roads everywhere.  The road accesss is ridiculous.  So the next thing would be to close alot of those spur roads.  The main roads and a few of the connecting roads should stay open but close off all those spurs and the ones that lead nowhere.

You cut down road accesss you cut down on both types of poaching.  You will also give the elk and deer something which they currently do not have;  a place to escape to.  80% of the spikes get smoked every year because with an ATV and a spotting scope there isn't a place to hide.  We need to give them some places to escape to.  It's pretty simple really.

I know, I know God forbid we make guys walk anymore.  I wonder how my 80 year old grand-father was able to hunt elk.  Oh yeah he used his feet.

[Legacy]

Agree with the need for more road restrictions and more limited access. With quads, 4 wheel drives, and optics to the bazillionth power, hunting has changed alot over the years. I'm 64 years young and started hunting elk with a peep sight on my .348 and 3x binocs. I didn't mind walkin' some then and I don't mind walkin' some now. Most hunters today are spoiled and get a little upset when faced with possibility they can no longer drive wherever they want, hunt from the comfort of their heated cab and scan the horizons for elk and deer with a 32x power spotting scope mounted on their pickup door window.