"Almost 65" under the new permitting system

[Bob33]

I think there will be another class of ticked off hunters with the changes to permits this year. 

Everyone's current point total has been rolled into all the categories this year.  Everyone has all his points in all the categories: Youth, 65 and Over, Disabled, and so forth.

Take the hunter who is 63 and has been applying for elk for 14 years.  With his 14 points he may draw this year, or next, but in two years he will be eligible to apply for the "65 and over" category of hunts.  That is some consolation. 

However, as I understand it under the new system he will have zero points in the "65 and over" category when he reaches 65.  That is because next year (when he is 64) his points will be purged in all categories that he is not eligible in.

[bobcat]

Yes, just one more example of what is wrong with what they are doing with our points this year. No matter how you look at it, it is unfair. It wouldn't have been so bad if they would have just added only an antlerless category to both deer and elk, and included youth, senior, disabled hunter, and master hunter permits within those categories. I see no need for all the separate categories, other than it will allow the WDFW to sell more applications. The really bad thing, is that in certain categories, there are only 1 or 2 hunts. These hunts are now going to become extremely difficult to draw, because everyone that buys that application has no choice but to put in for those hunts.

[SkookumHntr]

I think there will be another class of ticked off hunters with the changes to permits this year. 

Everyone's current point total has been rolled into all the categories this year.  Everyone has all his points in all the categories: Youth, 65 and Over, Disabled, and so forth.

Take the hunter who is 63 and has been applying for elk for 14 years.  With his 14 points he may draw this year, or next, but in two years he will be eligible to apply for the "65 and over" category of hunts.  That is some consolation. 

However, as I understand it under the new system he will have zero points in the "65 and over" category when he reaches 65.  That is because next year (when he is 64) his points will be purged in all categories that he is not eligible in.

The way In understand it is if he has 14 right now he will have 14 in that catagory when he turns 65. It says in the regs that whatever you have right now goes into all catagories so where are you hearing that after next year his points wont be in that catagory

[bobcat]

Bob33 has "inside" info. I'd believe what he says over what you read in the regs.

[SkookumHntr]

Oh ok bobcat I'll do that Not that it matters to me being 28 but that would be just onemore BS move by are joke of a game dept!

[littlemac]

So all the over 60 and under 65 guys need to draw before they are 65 or we start over in the new category.  WOW, now that's a lot of bull to get a bull.

[bobcat]

Well either way they do it, it's wrong. Someone who is 65 this year gets to take advantage of all their accumulated points being placed in the senior category. They can apply for a senior hunt with a good chance of drawing because they have 14 points. But they never applied for a senior hunt before! Why should they have 14 points in that category? So basically, the WDFW is allowing certain people to "cheat" the system. The thing is, they shouldn't have a special senior category anyway. There's no reason for it. They also don't need separate youth and disabled hunter categories. Those should all be lumped into the antlerless category.

[Bob33]

We will find out next year.  I have been told that after 2010 points will be zeroed out in all categories for which a hunter is not eligible; the application of points to all categories is for this year only.  That makes sense for a category like youth, but not for a category into which I will someday be eligible.

As Bobcat rightfully pointed out, it cuts both ways and will disadvantage someone.

[Ray]

I agree Bob33. I think it's wrong. When someone hits 65 their points could be applied.

[Wacenturion]

I think there will be another class of ticked off hunters with the changes to permits this year. 

Everyone's current point total has been rolled into all the categories this year.  Everyone has all his points in all the categories: Youth, 65 and Over, Disabled, and so forth.

Take the hunter who is 63 and has been applying for elk for 14 years.  With his 14 points he may draw this year, or next, but in two years he will be eligible to apply for the "65 and over" category of hunts.  That is some consolation. 

However, as I understand it under the new system he will have zero points in the "65 and over" category when he reaches 65.  That is because next year (when he is 64) his points will be purged in all categories that he is not eligible in.

Holy crap Batman..............you talking about me.

[Curly]

That problem could have been helped by making the applicant choose which eligible category their points were to be applied instead of simply throwing points into all categories.  But WDFW said that would be too complicated for Outdoor Central..................

So for the guy who has been approaching 65 the last several years thinking that he would just use the accumulated points eventually for a senior hunt.  Then he gets screwed by this change........that sucks.  I agree with Bobcat, they should have just had antlered and antlerless categories and not all these other ones.   This new system stinks....

[Curly]

oh.........and BTW, this is another thing that could have been brought to the attention of Dave Ware if he would have allowed the public to take a look at the proposal last year.

[provider]

It is reasonable that you are only allowed to accrue bonus points in categories in which you are eligible.

I mean c'mon, otherwise that would be like if I expected to receive Social Security benefits someday?, I would be expected to pay for it no...  oh wait a minute...  forget that thought.

On a serious note, you will notice when purchasing special permit applications, you can only buy those in which you are eligible...  the way it should be.  I can't imagine many individuals saving up their points for 65 and older permits.  But hey, who knows what senility can do to you?   

[Ray]

In light of the changes I don't think there should be pools based upon age group..... Or based upon master hunter classifications. The way it should be is that everyone should have the same opportunities to buy the same permit applications. With the exceptions of disabled veterans and other disabled individuals.

The changes were poorly organized and received very little to zero public input. Contrary to the claims by the game department. Pretty typical of many changes this year and in years past. It's fairly evident the wdfw doesn't seem to care about hunters. Otherwise they would have attempted to get real input. From the looks of my purchases so far this year they have actually received less of my cash.

[Elkaholic daWg]

From the looks of my purchases so far this year they have actually received less of my cash.

Right THERE is our only power.........the ONE thing that will get their attention.

[winshooter88]

I don't know where Bob33 gets his info, but I e-mailed Dave Ware at WDFW and he said that everyone's senior points would be there when they turned 65. So you are not going to lose your points because you are not eligible yet.

[Bob33]

That's good news. Thanks for confirming that.

[bobcat]

Yes that is good news. That means I will have 1 deer point and 2 elk points waiting for me in the senior category 23 years from now when I am eligible to apply in that category.    Many people will have 14. Boy that gives me a lot of hope for the future, NOT!  

Thanks WDFW.  

[Bob33]

Now let's see if they let me keep my YOUTH points. I'm going to find the fountain of youth one of these days...

[bobcat]

Some people may now have an incentive to become disabled, so they can make use of their 14 points in the disabled hunter category. Is anybody willing to cut off a foot so you can qualify? 

[Curly]

What happens if you get points for turning in a poacher?  Do you get 10 points placed in all categories?   Some guys that have turned in 3 or 4 poachers and have 30 or 40 points are sitting pretty in all categories now.....

[Bob33]

Didn't you read about the new POACHER subcategory?  You get ten points, but only after you pay $6.50.

[Curly]

  

[Curly]

Yes that is good news. That means I will have 1 deer point and 2 elk points waiting for me in the senior category 23 years from now when I am eligible to apply in that category.    Many people will have 14. Boy that gives me a lot of hope for the future, NOT!  

Thanks WDFW.  

When I'm eligible for using my senior points, I hope to be a resident of ID by then or maybe Oregon.  (At least ID has moose, but who knows in 23 years, the wolves may have eaten all of them by then). 

In this state there will be almost no chance of drawing in a senior category when most other seniors will be starting out with way more points.......not even worth applying when you're starting out with such low odds.  There will be 65 year old seniors drawing permits easier than the 75 year old senior that has been diligently applying since he was 65 years old.

[bobcat]

In 23 years the wolf hunting will be good in Idaho, if nothing else.

[steen]

Wow!  Alot of complaining.  Everyone will never be satisfied because we all have a different opinion.  I'm drawing for most categories.  I am up in the air about Ewe and nanny tags.  I don't need to shoot one for myself but I think it would give you a chance to scout the unit you may draw the male of the species and get a feel for the terrain, weather, conditioning, and what gear you may need to do that hunt.  To many choices, but it will be fun to see what I draw.  I'm a little bummed that cougar is not open during general deer this year in the unit I'm hunting cause that may be the only way I have an "oportunity" to have one on the wall.  Good luck drawing this year to all.

[steen]

Oh I forgot.  You won't lose your points for the other categories when you turn 65 you just gain a new category to draw from, is the way I see it.  Yeah! You will start at zero for the 65 yearold hunt but you are still eligable for the others with the points you already had.  Sounds awesome to me.

[Curly]

The complaining mostly stems from the fact that this system was basically done in secret with no public input.  And the main thing that I have been complaining about is that they didn't figure out a way to have an applicant choose which category their accumulated points should be placed instead of simply placing them in all categories for that species.  I've never really complained about WDFW until this year.

The issue about the points has really irritated me......especailly when WDFW said that it was done that way "to ensure fairness". 

I'm not sure that you will start at 0 in the 65 year old category.  I think whatever the points you have now in that species will be waiting for you when you turn 65.  And that is my complaint.

[Bob33]

Curly is right.  It is not just what was done, but how it was done and how it was presented.  It was initially presented as being done, in part, to improve draw odds.  It has always been presented as having "strong public input and support", and yet one that I know of (that's everyone on this forum, and lots of others) knew anything about this in any detail until late January.  It has basically been shoved down hunters' throats.

Does it improve odds?  You decide.  In 2009 there were 600 more elk permits available than there are in 2010.  Will there be (a) fewer applicants this year, (b) more this year, or (c) the same number of applicants this year?  If you answered (b) or (c), then explain how overall odds can improve.  Sure, some will draw this year because they are in more than one drawing, but that comes at the expense of someone else who may have drawn otherwise.

As for the 65 question: existing points were put into all subcategories at the beginning of this 2010 drawing period.  If you had 10 elk points, you will have 10 points in all the elk subcategories: Youth, Senior, Master Hunter, Quality, Antlerless, Disability, and Bull.  They will remain there indefinitely until used.  If you have 10 points in the Senior category they will be there for you to use when you turn 65.

[huntingfool7]

I'm surprised that you can't start putting in for ghost points in the senior or disabled categories regardless of your age or physical status.  Make it fair....just hand over your wallet, those points will be waiting for you.

[Bob33]

I'm surprised that you can't start putting in for ghost points in the senior or disabled categories regardless of your age or physical status.  Make it fair....just hand over your wallet, those points will be waiting for you.

I wondered the same thing.  If they do I'm putting in for disabled.  That way when I'm 85 and still haven't drawn anything I might have a chance.

[steen]

I don't think it increases odds at all.  It increases the chance to be able to hunt a cow/doe verses previously having to choose one or the other.  It that respect it increases odds but your quality bull or quality buck may decrease because so many will put in for all instead of one.  There are some who don't want ( or can't afford to) to spend the extra funds to buy all the apps.  so that may cause a small decrease in some apps.  I would have liked to have been able to put in my  worth but I don't think I would have gotten it right til I actually saw what will actually happen.  I would rather have the chance to modify it cause you can never think of everything until you actually see how it is going to work.  I would like to see the opportunitly to apply for a bull tag on the east side and if you do not draw change it to a west side hunt, or put in for separate tags for bow verses rifle.  But that will throw up alot of other problems that I can't see until I've seen it in progress.  I'm sure that would make it very complicated for the draw system.  Don't you think that sooner or later it will become a draw only state?  That is always a possiblity also.  I'm mot trying to jump down on anyone but I will enjoy being able to put in for a bull and cow tag where as before, at my age, I would worry that if I drew a cow moose I'd be to old to hunt my big bull or never draw, but cow meat in the freezer sounds really good.