Comparison of 2009 Elk success rates

[dreamingbig]

Looks like the archery success rate is now once again lower than both modern and muzzleloader.  Olympia can now give themselves high fives since they have restored balance.

Also, it is my prediction that after the changes to the regs this year, it will fall even lower.

[bobcat]

It only makes sense that the archery success rates would be lower. I don't see the problem. Don't people hunt archery for the additional challenge, and not for a better chance of bringing home meat?

[Bob33]

Archery 2008, General Season Elk: 9.1% success.
Archery 2009, General Season Elk: 9.0% success.

Looks OK to me.

[dreamingbig]

The point was that in the last season setting process the game department was concerned with archery success rates being higher than modern firearm and muzzleloader.  I will post a copy of their previous statements if necessary.

They responded by shortening seasons and reducing permits for archery while increasing opportunities for the other user groups.

They have been successful so they need a new argument when they attempt to reduce them again next time.

[bobcat]

I don't know... it doesn't look out of line to me. Archery success is still higher than modern firearm, but lower than muzzleloader:

[Magnum_Willys]

It only makes sense that the archery success rates would be lower. I don't see the problem. Don't people hunt archery for the additional challenge, and not for a better chance of bringing home meat?

Everyone I know switched to archery because they felt their odds of getting an animal were better hunting during the rut or in december with a bow than during november with a rifle - plus many bow seasons allow either sex.  They were usually right.  As all the timberlands have grown over rifle advantages over close-range weapons have shrunk.  In many areas anything you can see is within modern bow range so why not hunt during the rut?  I have never met anyone recently who found it so easy to get an elk with a rifle that they switched to a bow for the challenge.  20 years ago maybe but not now.  Sure there must be lots of guys on here who have, but I don't think its a majority overall.  

[dreamingbig]

Here is some of the game department's reasoning from April 2009:

"As you can see from the previous response, archers are quite successful at harvesting elk. In fact, archers also tend to take a greater proportion of mature bulls than the other two groups as well as have higher success rates. It is likely that the greater harvest of mature bulls is because of the timing of the early season"

"Actually in recent years, archers have the highest success rate among the three user groups. In 2007 the elk harvest success rates were: Archers ll% Muzzleloaders 8% Modern Firearm 7%"

"Archers made up 22% of the elk hunters and took 31% of the mature bulls harvested; Muzzleloaders made up l4% of the elk hunters and took 15% of the mature bulls; and Modern Firearm hunters made up 64% of the elk hunters and took 54% of the mature bulls. A mature bull was considered greater than five points for this comparison. It was for these reasons that we are recommending an adjustment to archery season timingand length."

"Allowing archery elk hunting during the last two weeks of September would result in greater mature bull harvest during the peak of breeding. It would also exasperate the propofion of mature bulls taken by archers."

[dreamingbig]

I don't know... it doesn't look out of line to me. Archery success is still higher than modern firearm, but lower than muzzleloader:

Bobcat... I will post 2009 for your review.  I am not sure where you got those numbers but it is not 2009.  I know your style... you cherry pick the truth for your own point of view.

[bobcat]

So archery success was 11% in 2007 and in 2009 was 9%. Modern firearm was 7% and last year was 8%.

Archery dropped 2 percent and modern firearm came up 1 percent. Seems reasonable to me. Archers still have a higher success rate than modern firearm. What specifically is it that you have a problem with?

[dreamingbig]

Here is 2009...

[WDFW-SUX]

I think there are more slobs that hunt the rifle elk seasons and thats why there success is lower.   Also if cows are removed its a totally different story and Rifle hunters are not allowed OTC cows.

[dreamingbig]

And here is a link... http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/elk_general.html

Modern firearm was 10.7% in 2009.  Where did you get your numbers?

[Alan K]

WDFW-SUX nailed it.   The archers a far more hardcore and serious (IN GENERAL) than rifle hunters, plain and simple.  I see tons of rifle hunting camps that I swear at least half the hunters don't leave, probably too hung over from the party around the fire the night before.  And I'm not trying to slam them, the experience in camp is a huge part of the hunt, and probably a big reason why a lot of them go period.  That's my point.  The numbers are skewed because there are a lot more guys who buy rifle tags and aren't serious about it than archers.

[dreamingbig]

Guys, lets not get off topic.  The simple fact is that the 2009 results were posted and modern firearm and muzzleloader both had higher success rates than archery.   See the link above.

[Bob33]

What is your problem with success for Modern and Muzzleloader improving?

[bobcat]

And here is a link... http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/elk_general.html

Modern firearm was 10.7% in 2009.  Where did you get your numbers?

Same place you did. Only thing is I'm looking at "General Season."  The numbers you are looking at are general season and special permit hunts combined.

[kirkl]

ya i dont see the problem here. so a few more rifle and ML hunters got lucky this year, next year it could go the other way, then what will you say. You already get an early and late season and can shoot spikes or cows in some GMU's. we get 9 days for spikes. again i dont see a problem.  

[dreamingbig]

Thanks for clarifying.  Why shouldn't we be looking at combined?

[dreamingbig]

ya i dont see the problem here. so a few more rifle and ML hunters got lucky this year, next year it could go the other way, then what will you say. You already get an early and late season and can shoot spikes or cows in some GMU's. we get 9 days for spikes. again i dont see a problem.  

I wanted to point out that the game department achieved their objective!  It will go even lower after this years changes.  In 2012, I hope that they will make adjustments to rebalance once again but I am not counting on it.

[Magnum_Willys]

 I see tons of rifle hunting camps that I swear at least half the hunters don't leave, probably too hung over from the party around the fire the night before.

You are supposed to leave camp ? 

[RUTNBULL1]

And here is a link... http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/elk_general.html

Modern firearm was 10.7% in 2009.  Where did you get your numbers?

Same place you did. Only thing is I'm looking at "General Season."  The numbers you are looking at are general season and special permit hunts combined.

We should be looking at the all numbers and all seasons it say's 2009 ELK Comparison Rates, which means all seasons, all weapons, and all animals taken period! And yes for the majority Archery hunters are more dedicated and serious about there hunting. Ok new topic!

[bobcat]

All I care about is the general season as that is all I can count on hunting every single year. So that's what I look at. The average success rates of the permits is meaningless. If I want to look at success rates for permits, I look at each permit hunt individually. But maybe that's just me.

Anyway, the archery season gives archers plenty of opportunity and more than enough time and areas to hunt. Archery hunters have no reason to complain about their success rates. 

[belkaholic]

i say that all of us bow hunters just hunt a little harder this year and make our own odds.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

I guess i look at it the wrong way, i look at days spent afield chasing game. How many days does an archer spend afield? As i like to think i make my own success. Some years it works out and some it doesn't but i enjoy every day in the field.
Most of the people i see typing on websites complain if they don't kill something, some of my favorite hunts have been where i didn't even pull the trigger. Yes, my goal is to fill the freezer every year, but if i don't that doesn't mean i didn't enjoy doing it.

Modern east-9 days
Modern West- 11 days
Archery east- 13 days early and between 15 and 17 days late
Archery west- 13 days early and 22 days late
Muzzy east- 7 days early and 15 late
Muzzy west- 7 days early and 22 days late

If you hunt archery on the west side you could spend 35 days in the field chasing elk. Sounds like fun to me...

[ELKBURGER]

I started archery hunting for the longer seasons and an opportunity to hunt the rut. Not the odds. I've yet to kill a bull in the early season. I've been close to many but the right angle and distance has'nt presented itself. That is the challenge I signed up for when I chose archery. In 16 yrs of bowhunting I've bagged 2 cows and 1 bull, all westside. Nothing to brag about but like WDFW said, its about the experience afield.

[DOUBLELUNG]

Right, wrong or indifferent - the WDFW's goal is to equalize success rates between user groups.  One reason archers' success climbed over the past years has been technological advances that increase harvest rate.  The closer our weapons get to rifle harvest efficiency, the more like rifle seasons archery seasons will become.  It is great, on an individual level, to pick up a bow you haven't shot in months and make a clean kill shot at 30-50 yards, but collectively as a group our opportunities decrease as our harvest efficiency increases.

I personally don't archery hunt to maximize success, I want the days in the field.  But success is the name of the game when it comes to allocating opportunity. 

[ICEMAN]

Guys keep arguing about it and someone will start comparing loss rates, griping about unfair season lengths between the groups etc.... All I have wanted for years is more opportunity to hunt. My hunt type choice has always been modern firearm. For many years I too griped about the unfair treatment each different hunter type receives. All I have asked for is equality.

Anymore, I have just learned to bite my lip about it, and try to encourage all of the user groups to join forces and fight as one.

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

Right on ICEMAN, we should all get along, and everybody used to. But now it is a me first world and i am not concerned about what you want, it is about me. What do you think the anti's want and the WDFW wants, if we are fighting amongst ourselves we are not fighting them.

[fishwhackin]

Same kind of jealousy and selfishness that drives all of the shed hunters to go out and cross fences illegally that undoubtedly causes the deaths of a handful more of elk due to being ran out of the feed stations and important wintering range!  As far as people complaining?  I agree, let's all get along and try to make things better for hunters in general, that being said however, I will be the hypocrite and ask the question:  Wasn't it the modern firearms hunters complaining and waving fingers that got my archery season shortened to start with.  Well, eye for an eye.  Shorten your season or do not shorten mine this year.  The numbers go to show you that the playing field has been leveled pretty dang good.  I archery hunt for the days afield and due to my work schedule, not to mention for my own safety and well being.  I hunted L.T. Murray during modern firearm season 8 years ago and thanks to my sanity, I am happy with life and do not feel suicidal enough to go out and brave the odds against hungover road hunters!  Good on you all that make a good honest effort to get out in the woods and off of the roads away from the campfire overflowing from booze.  I appreciate a great party, but keep the hungover roadhunters at camp and off of the roads.  In return we will all see our odds increase.  Take the hunters that never leave their vehicle or camp out of the equation and I think we would see a huge turn around on the success rate of modern firearms season that archery hunters would all be kicking and screaming "Unfair"  But hey, we need the license sales to fund the feed and everything else that our taxes and license plate donations seem to fall short of covering by the millions according to WDFW!

[elksnout]

I used to bow hunt for elk but things changed in my life and now for the past decade I have been rifle hunting. And my plan is to get back into bow hunting in the near future. That's my personnel plan. Now as always I do not give a rats ass how many archers or smoke pole rs get their elk. We all are allowed one tag, who gives a flying rip what weapon we choose ?? 7%, 9% or 12 % success. Who cares ? I say enjoy your weapon and hunt of choice, hunt wisely and safely and let me do the same. I'll give you a thumbs up for the elk you called in and shot cleanly with your bow or smoke pole and give me the same courtesy when I out smart a timber bull that's out foxed you guys during the early seasons. Let 'er rip !!

[grundy53]

wow... listen to all these bowhunters you guys like to just generalize and stereo type people to make you feel good? i hunt rifle and i bet i hunt just as hard as you guys. i hit the brush at day light and i hunt hard all day. i don't road hunt for elk and i don't sit in camp getting drunk all day. hell i probably have to work harder cause i don't get the to hunt the rut and i can't shoot a cow. and yes most of my shots are within bow range. I have seen many bow camps while driving in the woods in September and I've seen my share of bow hunters drinking in camp (nothing wrong with that as long as your done hunting). i just think when bow hunters start talking $hit about other hunters it makes them sound like elitist @$$holes.... sorry for the rant but it just pisses me off.

[dreamingbig]

Grundy, I will apologize for my bowhunting brothers.  I started this thread and that was not my intent.  As a general rule archery hunters have to hunt harder in order to be successful but that doesn't mean all do.  There are great hunters among all user groups.

Do note however that archery success rates are falling and will continue to do so given the recent changes in regulations.  That was my intent.

[NWBREW]

I used to bow hunt for elk but things changed in my life and now for the past decade I have been rifle hunting. And my plan is to get back into bow hunting in the near future. That's my personnel plan. Now as always I do not give a rats ass how many archers or smoke pole rs get their elk. We all are allowed one tag, who gives a flying rip what weapon we choose ?? 7%, 9% or 12 % success. Who cares ? I say enjoy your weapon and hunt of choice, hunt wisely and safely and let me do the same. I'll give you a thumbs up for the elk you called in and shot cleanly with your bow or smoke pole and give me the same courtesy when I out smart a timber bull that's out foxed you guys during the early seasons. Let 'er rip !!

I agree 100%. I do not care if some say rifle hunters are slobs or archers have more passion for the hunt. To me that is B.S.. I thought this was a discussion about elk success rates. Comments like those posted earlier in this thread.....belittling rifle hunters because some feel they know is crazy. There is a lot I could say about archery game loss or muzzy but that doesn't help in keeping the core group of hunters together. dreamingbig, I know this was not your intent but my god this seems to happen alot on this site. I have done both....rifle and bow, like a lot on this site have and I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly on both sides. There is not one group that is exempt from it.


There are hard core hunters and slobs in all categories and not one is any better then the other. We choose to hunt with the weapon we choose because we love the hunt and the wilderness. Hunters care......slob hunters don't....BOW OR RIFLE OR MUZZY. just my . Not meant to offend anyone.......unless your a slob hunter. 

[NWBREW]

  As a general rule archery hunters have to hunt harder in order to be successful but that doesn't mean all do.  There are great hunters among all user groups.

 

Sorry but I do not agree with that statement. Archers may have to get closer to the game they wish to harvest but they do not have to hunt harder. Archers have a longer season to harvest (as I believe they should ) but a hunter, no matter what his choice of weapon, still looks at topo maps, pays attention to the wind and the weather, may be gone from dawn till dusk....or later, put on just as many boot miles as the other and so forth. I will say that because a bow hunter must get closer the most successful of bow hunters do need to hunt smarter....but not harder. Again just my  . Not meant to offend anyone.

[bobcat]

Right. It could also be argued that archery hunters don't have to hunt as hard because they are able to hunt elk in the rut, which means they are vocal, and therefore easier to find, not to mention they haven't been hunted yet all year, so they're still following their normal routines, and very well could be in much easier to access locations than they will be later in the year when rifle season is open. Rifle season is at the most difficult time of the year to find bulls, as the rut has just ended, and the bulls are hiding out all by themselves in out of the way places where not many people are willing to go. The weather isn't cold enough yet (usually) to force them down to lower elevations. And when that weather does come, archery season opens up again, giving archers another chance at "easier" elk.

[dreamingbig]

Bobcat, you are assuming archery hunters have a bull tag or are hunting a GMU that allows you to shoot a bull.  I haven't drawn a bull tag yet for an eastern washington GMU yet (only been hunting/putting in for the past 7 years) so I have been forced to hunt cows and spikes in an OTC unit with a season that is only 13 days long.  My effective range is only out to 40 yards (yes I am accurate to 70 yards on the practice range but my personal belief that too many things can happen from release to impact when you get out past 40 yards).  This year, my GMU of choice has been changed to spike only.  I have taken 3 elk in those 7 years (2 cows and 1 spike) and each shot was less than 30 yards.

Therefore, for me hunting with my bow is pretty dang hard and harder than hunting with a weapon that has an effective kill range that is two to five times mine.  I don't think you or NWBREW will ever change your mind.

Archery success rates are trending down and they will continue to do so given the changes.  That remains my point and is one crutch that the WDFW will not be able to lean on during the next 3 year season setting process.

[bobcat]

Bobcat, you are assuming archery hunters have a bull tag or are hunting a GMU that allows you to shoot a bull.  I haven't drawn a bull tag yet for an eastern washington GMU yet (only been hunting/putting in for the past 7 years) so I have been forced to hunt cows and spikes in an OTC unit with a season that is only 13 days long.

Rifle and muzzleloader seasons are the same, they also can only kill spike bulls and they do not have the option of taking a cow, like the archery hunters do. Wouldn't you say you see a lot more cow elk than you do spikes? Rifle season in those units is 9 days, muzzleloader 7, while archery gets 13.

Archery success rates are trending down and they will continue to do so given the changes.  That remains my point and is one crutch that the WDFW will not be able to lean on during the next 3 year season setting process.

So they're trending down, but not a significant amount, and I have to ask: what are these changes you're talking about? The archery season is still 2 weeks in mid-September, just as it has been for a while now. There are many units to choose from if you want the option of taking a cow, and if you want to hunt bulls you can buy a westside tag and hunt almost any GMU in western Wa.

[dreamingbig]

Rifle and muzzleloader seasons are the same, they also can only kill spike bulls and they do not have the option of taking a cow, like the archery hunters do. Wouldn't you say you see a lot more cow elk than you do spikes? Rifle season in those units is 9 days, muzzleloader 7, while archery gets 13.

So they're trending down, but not a significant amount, and I have to ask: what are these changes you're talking about? The archery season is still 2 weeks in mid-September, just as it has been for a while now. There are many units to choose from if you want the option of taking a cow, and if you want to hunt bulls you can buy a westside tag and hunt almost any GMU in western Wa.

Yes I see more cow elk than spikes which is why the change to spike only for GMU 356 and 352 for archery will make the success rate their fall dramatically.  There are still cow permits in each unit for muzzleloader and modern firearm this year.

The changes are too many to document fully but the number of days afield for archery has been reduced dramatically.  The early season is now a day shorter than the last 3 year cyle and is being moved forward a day each year, it was the 8th to 21st and is now 7 to 19th (last year 8th to 20th and next 6th to 18th); the peak of the rut is after the season is over but right during the prime "bull" hunts.  There were also several late season opportunities lost.  It is clear that you think modern has been getting a raw deal for years and that you will never hunt with a bow.

I have a hard time figuring out how equity among user groups can be achieved while also maximizing revenue.  The WDFW has obviously chosen the latter.

[grundy53]

I used to bow hunt for elk but things changed in my life and now for the past decade I have been rifle hunting. And my plan is to get back into bow hunting in the near future. That's my personnel plan. Now as always I do not give a rats ass how many archers or smoke pole rs get their elk. We all are allowed one tag, who gives a flying rip what weapon we choose ?? 7%, 9% or 12 % success. Who cares ? I say enjoy your weapon and hunt of choice, hunt wisely and safely and let me do the same. I'll give you a thumbs up for the elk you called in and shot cleanly with your bow or smoke pole and give me the same courtesy when I out smart a timber bull that's out foxed you guys during the early seasons. Let 'er rip !!

I agree 100%. I do not care if some say rifle hunters are slobs or archers have more passion for the hunt. To me that is B.S.. I thought this was a discussion about elk success rates. Comments like those posted earlier in this thread.....belittling rifle hunters because some feel they know is crazy. There is a lot I could say about archery game loss or muzzy but that doesn't help in keeping the core group of hunters together. dreamingbig, I know this was not your intent but my god this seems to happen a lot on this site. I have done both....rifle and bow, like a lot on this site have and I have seen the good, the bad and the ugly on both sides. There is not one group that is exempt from it.


There are hard core hunters and slobs in all categories and not one is any better then the other. We choose to hunt with the weapon we choose because we love the hunt and the wilderness. Hunters care......slob hunters don't....BOW OR RIFLE OR MUZZY. just my . Not meant to offend anyone.......unless your a slob hunter. 

i agree too. and I'm sorry for my previous rant. i just really hate it when people generalize about modern rifle hunters. i hunt elk really hard as well as the rest of my hunting crew. i have nothing against bow hunters (a lot of my friends and family hunt with a bow). i would love to hunt elk with a bow but i would rather stick with my crew. i just hate when people talk *censored* about my choice of weapon... the same as I'm sure bow hunters hate it when we bring up the amount of lossed animals there are during bow season due to people taking poor shots. i feel there are good and bad in every hunting season and we need to stick together and stop the infighting.