.17HM2 Kaboom - Please read!

[shaneman153D]

Well I knew it ha to be too good to be true.....

I recently picked up a conversion barrel for my Ruger 10/22 that allowed it to shoot .17HM2 ammo.  I posted a rave review here about 3 weeks ago, and today it KB'd on me.  Didn't get injured, but it did ring my ears pretty good.  I just wanted to post this in case anyone was thinking of getting one.

Haven't figured out what caused it yet, but the shell is still in the chamber and it looks similar to a case head separation.  The ejector was ripped from the bolt and the magazine broke and flew out the bottom.  I did shove a cleaning rod down to see if the bullet was lodged in the barrel, but it wasn't.  This rules out the prior round squibbing.

I'm going to take it as-is to a gunsmith and see if he can tell me if it was ammo, bolt, or barrel that caused it.  I'm not gonna slam the manufacturer, because in a blowback rimfire, anything could have caused this.  I'm not ruling anything out at this point.  I've shot it a lot, it could have just been really dirty.

I knew that this was a possibility when I converted this gun, but figured my eyes would be okay based on the closed-receiver design and relatively low power of the gun/ammo.  (Luckily I was right, this time)

Magnum research used to make complete rifles in this config. and had some troubles, so they discontinued and recalled them. 

I will update this thread when I know more.

Shane

[carpsniperg2]

intresting read

[FC]

Sounds like it fired out of battery, glad you're all right!

[demontang]

Yea Id never own a 17 they have problems. We had a lot of 17 hmrs blow up and thats enough to steer me clear.

[shaneman153D]

From the barrel mfr:

Good morning
     There appears to be a major issue recently with the 17 Mach II and the 17 HMR ammo by all of the manufactures. The ammo seems to be being made to a higher velocity and pressure and the heavy bolt handle kit used for the Mach II bolts does not slow down the bolt movement. What is happening is the bolt opens before the bullet leaves the muzzle. This causes the case to become unsupported by the chamber and the cases rupture in front of the rim. This seems to be happening more with the CCI/Federal/Hornady ammo more than the Remington and the Eley but I have also had reports of case failure with those as well. The issue is with the ammo and if it does not change I believe you will see an end to the .17 bore rim-fire offerings for the semi rifles
Let me know what your gunsmith comes up with
Thanks
Chris Murray

[GoldTip]

I've got an H&R single shot bull barrel in 17hmr and my buddy has a Savage in 17hmr, we've had nothing but excellent results with them.  Sounds like it's a problem with the autoloaders.

[demontang]

Yea most of the explosions have been semiauto but Ive seen a bolt gun blown up too. They have to had a major recall on ammo and it still is happening then I wouldnt trust it still. The risk of bad ammo is way to high and I wouldnt chance an injury to me or anyone around me.

[FC]

The only guns that I have seen have issues in either the 17 hmr or 17 hm2 were with the autoloaders firing out of battery.  It also appears that very few autoloaders are available (new) anymore.

[Bscman]

Bad deal! Glad no one was hurt!
I wouldn't want an HMR autoloader, but I've had good luck with the HM2's as long as the chamber is kept clean.

You said you had a conversion barrel...did you have a heavy bolt, heavy bolt handle, or heavier spring? The HM2 has a lot more umphhh than the 22lr so work is required to get the timing right. I've had best luck with the rimfiretechnologies mid-weight bolt handle and their progressive spring.

[actionshooter]

Most of the barrel manufactures have stopped making the .17 barrels for the 10/22. This was a serious problem a couple of years ago. There was also a major recall on .17hmr barrels for the discontinued 10/22 magnum.

[shaneman153D]

Bad deal! Glad no one was hurt!
I wouldn't want an HMR autoloader, but I've had good luck with the HM2's as long as the chamber is kept clean.

You said you had a conversion barrel...did you have a heavy bolt, heavy bolt handle, or heavier spring? The HM2 has a lot more umphhh than the 22lr so work is required to get the timing right. I've had best luck with the rimfiretechnologies mid-weight bolt handle and their progressive spring.

Yeah I bought it as a kit, it came with a magnum research bolt handle and heavier spring.  Magnum research has discontinued their line of "10/17s"

[MikeWalking]

Do you suppose this has anything to do with Remingtons Recall of .17HMR Autoloaders? They are saying not to use 17hmr in Autoloaders.

I'l have to go back to their website and read about the 2 recalls again.


http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center.aspx

[Mookie]

The Magnum Research bolt handle is not a very good handle. Some have had good results but most do not, me included. The barrels are awesome though.
CCI and Hornady have a reputation for kabooms, Remington and Eley rarely have problems. GM barrels had a problem with a run of their barrels, all rimfire calibers, having blowouts.

When it comes to conversions, mine is a total Rimfire tech conversion, I would stick with the Volquartsen, Connecticut Precision (CPC), or Rimfire Tech. They have the best results when it comes to the HM2 conversions. And make SURE you don't use the steel bolt buffer. Keep the chamber clean.

[WonkyWapiti]

I was shooting my buddies semi-auto Volquartsen 17HMR last month in Montana while eradicating gophers.  That was one sweet rifle with the Zeiss scope.  I checked their website and other info on the web and it appears they have beefed up their customs guns to deal with this issue.

[thinkingman]

I think VQ uses a full stainless steel receiver on their guns.  Never been a fan of the aluminum receiver on the 10/22.
Do you have a bolt buffer or use the original pin?
Glad you weren't hurt.

[shaneman153D]

Wrote CCI on Friday and they got back to me today.  My reply is first, scroll down to see what the expert said:

"CCI Expert",

Wow, did this response really take four days to compose?  I asked ONE question in my email to you, would it have been so hard to answer that?

Are you serious?  I'm not going to write down what it says on the package because I'm pretty sure you know. 

Here's your warning on your website:  WARNING: To avoid serious injury from a ruptured cartridge, 17 Mach 2 ammunition should only be used in firearms with components specifically designed to safely fire 17 Mach 2 ammunition, including the firearm's action components (bolt/firing mechanism). Do not use this ammunition in firearms that have been modified unless ALL the action components have been specifically designed or verified by the firearm manufacturer as useable for 17 Mach 2.

These components are designed "as usable" for the 17 Mach 2.  Why don't you take accountability for your mistakes?

I would imagine Ruger also recommends that you don't use Volquartsen .22LR barrels.  Toyota recommends that you don't put a cold-air intake on the Tacoma, but I did it anyway.  Know why?  Because I'm competent enough to pull it off, and the company that made the intake didn't say that it was unsafe to put in a Toyota Tacoma.

Maybe it's me, I don't know.  Maybe you should correct your warning to say that your ammunition is too inconsistent to fire safely in a blowback operated semi-auto.  Naming a Ruger 10-22 w/ conversion barrel would be a great step toward showing that you care about your customers.

And lucky for you, I'm a gun-forum-fag, so they'll all hear about this one.

Theeeeeeaaaaaankkkkksss!!

Shane

> Subject: RE: CCI Ammo - Ask the Expert Form
> Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 15:54:56 -0700
> From: cciexpert@ATK.com
> To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>
> Shane: please read the Warning on the box of ammunition and the Warning
> on website regarding the modification of firearms to use 17 M-2. Should
> you have a problem with the product, we would be pleased to test
> conformity of the product to Industry Standards and inform you.
>
> Any problem that you encounter with the a modified firearm should be
> directed to the maker of any/all modified parts. The Warnings are quite
> self-explanatory on our concerns for the proper modification of these
> firearms. At a minimum, Ruger does not authorize/approve of the
> addition or replacement of any part not made by Ruger.
>
> Shoot Straight!
> Coy Getman
> 2299 Snake River Ave.
> Lewiston, ID 83501
> CCI/Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator
> (866) 286-7436 ext 5351
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> Sent: Friday, May 21, 2010 12:28 PM
> To: cciexpert
> Subject: CCI Ammo - Ask the Expert Form
>
>
> Shane XXXXXXXXXXX
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
> XXXXXXXXXXX
> XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
>
>
> I was writing to let you guys know that I recently picked up an ER Shaw
> 18" .17hm2 conversion barrel for my Ruger 10/22. I installed it and the
> modified bolt handle (I'm qualified, I've done much more intense work
> on firearms) I've had it for about a month now, and have been using it
> at work as my ranch/truck gun.
>
> I have tried three different types of ammo for it; CCI, Hornady, and
> Eley. CCI seemed to be the most accurate and had the lowest standard
> deviation.
>
> Yesterday, on the second round fired out of the magazine, it blew up in
> the receiver.
>
> I don't know what caused it. Upon looking at the chamber, it looks like
> it would if I had a case head separation. The extractor was ripped from
> the bolt, and the magazine was destroyed and flew out the magwell. The
> receiver/barrel don't look damaged. There is no bullet lodged in the
> barrel, so to me that rules out the prior round squibbing.
>
> I'm going to take it to a gunsmith to find out if the problem was ammo,
> bolt, or barrel related, and I will let you guys know what he thinks of
> it.
>
> The ammo used was CCI "fast and furious" 17gr vmax, and it was about the
> 50th round on that cleaning, 250 rounds total down the barrel.
>
> I emailed the barrel manufacturer, and they said they have been getting
> reports about this, and it's an overpressure situation causing the bolt
> to start ejection before the bullet is out of the tube. He specifically
> said that this is a problem with all of the manufacturers of .17HM2
> ammo, but mainly Hornady and CCI.
>
> Have you had this problem before? I know that with a blowback rimfire a
> lot of stuff can go wrong, but maybe if this is a trend you should put
> out a safety message.
>
> Shane
>

So maybe I'm wrong, maybe they are, whatever.  Just thought I would put out the info.

[MikeWalking]

Remington has been telling people not to shoot .17HMR in Autoloaders for a long time now. They're even buying back their autoloaders in .17 all due to excessive pressures.

[MuleySniper]

I had a Remington model 597 .17hmr right when they first came out. It was accurate and so so to shoot. My biggest complaint was how loud it was. I sold it before even hearing about any of the problems with them. Prefer my .22 mag any day.
MS

[C-Money]

I am gonna keep shooting the 17hmr. I shoot a bolt Marlin. Devistating on ground hogs!

[FC]

Shaneman you had it right here: Here's your warning on your website:  WARNING: To avoid serious injury from a ruptured cartridge, 17 Mach 2 ammunition should only be used in firearms with components specifically designed to safely fire 17 Mach 2 ammunition, including the firearm's action components (bolt/firing mechanism). Do not use this ammunition in firearms that have been modified unless ALL the action components have been specifically designed or verified by the firearm manufacturer as useable for 17 Mach 2.

[shaneman153D]

I am gonna keep shooting the 17hmr. I shoot a bolt Marlin. Devistating on ground hogs!

Oh yeah I have a 917V as well, great little gun!  It's my current ranch gun, but it's just not as fun 

[jackelope]

having a converted 10/22 grenade on you because of the 17 ammo is not a surprise to me. it happens and doing the conversion is risky in the 1st place. The last person to blame would be the ammo company in my opinion. The blame should be placed on the guy who did the work or the company that sold you the parts and said they would work.

 

[jackelope]

post off of a different random forum...

I know this thread is real old,  but, I have one of these and have very mixed opinions about it.  Generally negative.  It will shoot extremely well sometimes,  EABCO has had problems with this, not with accuracy but reliability problems.  i.e. blown cases, operational malfunctions, etc.  They blame it on the ammo, I blame it on the design.  I solved the partial open bolt firings with lead solder wire wrapped around the bolt to increase resistance to pressure thereby keeping the bolt closed until the projectile has cleared the bore.  I also have a Ruger 77/22 with a Green Mountain 17 HM2 aftermarket bbl and it has never had a so-called "squib" load (Brown's words) and is incredibly accurate.  The blown bulged head cases in the 10/22 is not a once in a blue moon occurence.  Case malformations of a variety of degrees. It is 20 to 30 % of the rounds fired.  I have a bag full of fired cases.  I fired approx 1500 rds through it before a round blew the magazine to pieces and sent the extractor and plunger and spring into the unknown.  I sent pictures to Brown and he claims it was the ammo.  I also sent the same pics to Hornady and they know about the EABCO conversion product and claim it it is entirely unique to the Brown conversion. The up side, it is generally a tack driver.  After the magazine episode I have removed it from the rifle and converted back to 22lr.  Had I been hurt, there would have been different course of action taken.  So I am relaying my experience when ever the subject comes up.  Brown has an obscure page on his site disclaiming any design fault and blaming the problem on the ammo.  There are no known issues in bolt rifles or fixed breech handguns.  I have fired over 1000 rds through the 77/22  conversion/Green Mountain(super simple), with out one single issue with ammo.  Other than the 17's have a tendency to foul and have accuracy drop off after 50-60 rds.(in my experience).  When I added the weight to the bolt it functioned fine.  If Brown either came out with a slightly heavier bolt/handle or heavier recoil spring I believe the problem would be solved.  I have purchased other Brown products, barrels and other acces. 100%satisfied!  If I were Brown's lawyer I would reccommend he recall or redesign to avoid a costly issue.  Volquartson makes a conversion.  Very expensive and reliable, I understand has NO issues.  JMHO

[shaneman153D]

Sorry to necro this thread, but just had to give an update - Decided I wanted to get rid of this barrel and get a nice Shaw 22lr bbl (no brainer).  I figured i would start by asking Sportsman's Guide if they would take it back, knowing that it wasn't their fault and they would probably say to take it up with the mfr.

Wrong!

Hello Shane,
Thank you for your email.
Thank you for providing this information.  You may return the item for a refund or exchange the information is listed below for your convenience.

I see a helical-fluted stainless 22bbl in my near future!  I love these guys!    

[ICEMAN]

Nice.