Spine

[boneaddict]

I hate this stuff....   I feel that I am right on the verge of being too much spine for one arrow and not enough for the other.  I am shooting GTs straditional carbon 5575 and ?7595s?.    I am shooting a longbow, so there isn't much tuning to do to the bow.  Its at 70 pounds at 32 inches I think is what Ernie had it at.  My arrows are coming off and then nose diving to the right bare shafted.  Even my practice arrows seem to be slamming the paper a little sideways, leaving a rip to the left.(this is with my 5575s)  Any pointers.  This will be the first year I will hunt with this bow.    

[Hunterman]

Sounds like your arrows are a bit long for that bow..

Hunterman(Tony)

[Button Nubbs]

I don't know much about trad equipment but when I bare shaft tuned my compound I was hitting low right also, I moved my rest up and left and it took care of it.maybe you can move your rest but like I said I know nothing about trad bows

[boneaddict]

Paper tuning, its tail high and to the left.   My concern with it is that I think alot of it could be the fletchings coming off the riser as I am sure there is contact, but with trad equipment, you don't shoot off of a rest so to speak.  I shoot max length arrows as that is my draw length.  If I reemmber papertuning, I think I should lower my knock a bit.  Is that correct?  I know it won't do much good if my spine is off.  I shoot the lesser spine on my other trad bow which has even more draw weight than this one.

[boneaddict]

Here is my chart.  I think the first thing I need to do is try some stiffer arrows I guess, maybe the 7595s and see if they are acting better than my 5575s.   In my one bow, the lesser spined ones shot way better than the stiffer arrows, so I hesitated going to them for this bow.

My bow is 70 pounds at 28 inch draw so at 32 its probably more......  I guess I'd be in the trad category with 32 inch at 70+

[boneaddict]

6 is a 7595

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

You raise or lower your nock point to cure porpoise action, as in arow hits up or down.
if the nock point on your string is too high, the shaft will fly and land nock high.
If you start with the nock low, the shaft flies nock low and hits nock low. If the nock point is too low, the shaft will bounce off the shelf of rest and give the impression that the nock is high. Therefore, always start with the nock too high.
For a right-handed shooter, an arrow to the right denotes a staff that is spined too weak. In the event that the full length shaft is to the left of center for a right handed shooter (opposite for a lefty), denotes a shaft that is spined too stiff,
you want to "bare-shaft week, After fletching, shoot your finished arrow into the target’s center at a distance of 20 yds. You should discover that your slightly weak bare shaft is no longer weak and is hitting the center of the target. This validates the reason to tune for a weak bare shaft. The application of cresting paint/wraps and fletching stiffens the spine of the shaft, thus moving it to the left for a right handed shooter. Had the bare shaft been tuned to hit center, the completed arrow would have been slightly stiff and incapable of allowing the shooter to obtain the best accuracy.  

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

But then I shoot wood  

[NWWABOWHNTR]

Stu's dynamic spine calculator says the 55-75's are too weak.  WHat grain tip are you using?

[NWWABOWHNTR]

the bow is 70@28?  WIth you drawing it out to 32 that puts the draw weight between 82 and 86 #'s.....

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

the bow is 70@28?  WIth you drawing it out to 32 that puts the draw weight between 82 and 86 #'s.....

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I just re-read origional post 70# @ 32" 

[rasbo]

how high above level is your nock???start with 1/2 inch high...but you might try putting a piece of leather on the plate or try a few toothpicks to see if that changes your left to right...if it does I think you need a stronger spine

[boneaddict]

I was thinking it was at 32 Sticknstring but he deonoted on it at 28 I believe.  Its lighter than my other bow.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

You gain somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 # per inch of draw after 28, so if it is 70 @ 28" you are pulling closer to 80+...
But in my experience a bare shaft that is tail high and to the left, would be nock high and too stiff.....
I would get a handfull of mixed arrows, shoot them all, and see what spine is on the ones that hit the target best (center of group)
Also, what weight head/tip is on these arrows ?
is it the same weight you plan on hunting with ?

[boneaddict]

125 grain and yes, both practice and broadheads are 125.   

Does a heavier arrow have much effect of settling them down.  I was thinking about adding inserts or some weight.

[NWWABOWHNTR]

google stu miller's spine calculator... its free and will get you in the ballpark..   The more weight at the tip the weaker the spine will become. 

[NWWABOWHNTR]

http://bowmaker.net/tuning.htm   This is by OL Adcock,  all about tuning. 

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

A heavier Broadhead will reduce spine,
a heavier arrow might settle it down, I know they reduce hand-shock and quiet the bow some by absorbing more vibration.....

[boneaddict]

It is 70 pounds at 32.   Which makes more sense because I thought it was lighter than my old longbow.  I shot them both last night and the 7595s shot better, which makes no sense to me as the 5575s shoot better out of my old bow which is heavier draw weight.  My knock looks as if its a tad high.  I was thinking about going about one knock length lower.  I'm waiting for a day with no wind whatsoever to come to my final conclusion.  Its been blowing pretty hard in the Wenas the last couple nights.  I have one arrow I am throwing out as its obviously an outflier.

[boneaddict]

If I did that spine calculator right, it confirms my initial thought I am right between the two of them.  One is spined not enough and one is spined too much.

[Big10gauge]

Might want to try lowering your nock and maybe twist your string to increase your brace height if you think you're running a weak spine.

[Hornseeker]

Lots of good info here Doug, but lets just start at square one...

Yes, you are about 70@32.

This bows riser is cut deeper than your old one, so a weaker arrow flies better out of your older one, even though its a bit heavier bow. If you were to use thicker material on the side plate of this bow, it would also take a weaker arrow, but I'd recommend staying with the 75/95's..

You shooting split finger? The first thing you want to do is get your nock point set. So, take 2-3 of those 75/95's with NO feathers on them, and 2-3 with feathers, stand at about 15-20 yards, and shoot them all at the same spot... are the bare shafts hitting low or high?? Lets back up one step... do you have a bow square? If so, put your nock point a good 5/8 to 3/4 inch above square. I'm not sure why, but my bows have always preferred a higher nock point. If your arrow is hitting much lower than your feathered arrows, then lower your nock point about 1/16 inch and so on, untill they come together...all shafts, bare or feathered, impacting about the same height....

Then... are your bares hitting left or right of your feathered groups? Those 75/95's are likely a bit stif, so they "SHOULD" hit left (the bare shafts should be left of the feathered shafts)...BUT....if they are way too stiff...you can get a false reading and they may show right, but you should hear a pretty good thump on the riser......

[Hornseeker]

So what you do now... if they are stiff...which they may be... you can use a heavier head, like go to a 145 field point... OR.... go back to the 55/75 and stay with the 125. If you do that, you can just put another layer of leather or velcro or whatever on the side plate to bring the 5575's into tune...

Confused yet??

1st things 1st... go shoot the bare shaft groups with the feathered groups...do it with both sets of arrows and tell me what you see....

[boneaddict]

WILL DO.   THANKS!

[boneaddict]

I'm looking to shoot a little heavier, so might try that route if need be.  I'm about 2/3" above square on nock.  I am at work but eyeballed it last night.   I think I raised the old bow a bit, so thats about where it is.  I do what you said.  yes, I am shooting split finger

[Hornseeker]

Oh yeah, and like someone mentioned....make sure that you have at least 6 1/2 inches from the deep part of hte grip to the string (brace height)... you can even go 7 no prob, but I dont go any more than that... some guys do....

[NWWABOWHNTR]

SOme great advice there from Ernie... I started with the Sapphire out at 7 1/4 brace height but am now at 6 3/4 and it shoots sweet there.  Mine is 54@28 so at 30 I am guessing it is 62#'s,  and am shooting 500 spine cut to 30" with 125 gr points.   

[Hornseeker]

Dang...and you've bare shafted that 500? That seems weak, but you sound like you know what you are doing! Good deal.

[NWWABOWHNTR]

I have bareshafted it and they flew great.  WHen I first got my ACS I thought I'd need 400's so I bought a dozen shafts and they tuned ok... then for fun tried the 500's cut them down to 30 and they flew great.  So I didn't even try the 400's with the Sapphire.  I am not going to complain about the way they shoot,  did have a problem at first with a little porpoising,  but adjusted the nock height to 3/8's high and that is now good.  Now you have me thinking and I am going to try out some 400's on the Hawk... just to put my mind to ease.  

[Hornseeker]

Shoot...sounds like you have it figured out just fine... Dont fix it if it aint broke....

Something people do a lot of, myself included (in the past) is spine too stiff. A weaker spine is a little more forgiving really..

[boneaddict]

Strings twisted, brace is increased, nock is lowered a bit.   Going to give the arms a break then try it some more.  I'm beginning to think that I could shoot either spine.  It will be curious when I plug some broadheads on.  First things first.  I'll get that nock where it should be. 

[boneaddict]

Something else to ask....when I finally go with these new arrows.  What do you guys think about fletchings.  I like to shoot feathers (not plastic)  3 4 or 5 inch   and do you shoot 3 or 4 of them. 

[Hornseeker]

Whatever you do...DONT put the broadhead on a bare shaft!

3 or 4 either way... dont matter. 4 will stabilize better, all else being equal, but if your arrows are tuned good to you and your bow, you only need a few 3"ers... otherwise...hell, use 4 @ 5" and that will stabilize anything!

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

Something else to ask....when I finally go with these new arrows.  What do you guys think about fletchings.  I like to shoot feathers (not plastic)  3 4 or 5 inch   and do you shoot 3 or 4 of them. 

I have 4 fletch on my "Sweetlands" (compressed cedar), with a 160 gr Grizzly, but they are 4, 4" and seem to make more noise (almost a buzz) than my 3, 5" helicals on regular cedar, but fly almost the same...
(70#@28", pulling 29.5"=74#+)
I got the arrows in trade, so I like them, but sometimes think about getting them re-fletched.....

[NWWABOWHNTR]

ALL I have ever shot are 3 5" left helicals,  have thought of going to 4" but these fly great. 

[carpsniperg2]

i shoot 4 fletch 2" on all my compound bows and 6 fletch with as much off set as my j8 will allow and i hand cut them with my chopper and they are right wing 3" parabolic feathers on my trad bows

[Hornseeker]

Holy Chit Carp... you ought to post a pic of one of them 6 fletch!!!

My trad arrows are done up with 3 straight fletch, 2.5" blazer cut feathers... fly like darts with field points or broadheads. However, my arrows are tuned such that my bare shafts hit with my feathers at 50 yards...

[boneaddict]

Whatever you do...DONT put the broadhead on a bare shaft!

You could have said that before I drained the pool.    (kidding)

[Hornseeker]

Hehehe....

So Doug, my hunting partner Barri drew an unreal elk tag... that buffer zone tag just north of where we hunted together.... VERY jealous!

[carpsniperg2]

wife has the good camera but here you go hornseeker. pics of my fletching my trad bow arrows and then all my arrows compound and trad. from wood,trad carbons"tapered", and reg carbons

[boneaddict]

NO WAY Ernie.   THats COOL!   I wanted to get into there just to photograph. I'd like to get into there about now to see the bachelor herds.   

[Hornseeker]

i'm sure it would be insane!!

[Recurve-Elk]

Just saw you figured it out. After I wrote that whole thing in italics, so if you want that info its at the bottom of this post.  

As far as fletchings go.  I started with 3, strait 4 inch feathers.  Didn't like them too much, so I went to 3, strait 5 inch parabolic feathers.  Seem to be great for me.  I have a jo jan mono fletching jig and it makes re fletching very easy.

Hey if you are still looking to get your weight up, I seriously recommend the weight tubes.  They don't mess with your spine nearly as much as heavy inserts and such do.





I was tuning my bow a few weeks ago and had the same problem.  Turned out I just had to move my nock point up about an 8th inch.  I think its sitting at just over a half inch above center.  With a good clean release the arrow shoots like a dart.  I had the same symptoms as you.  Arrows were ripping up and left when paper tuning.  

Now if that doesn't solve your problem, and you can't cut your arrows, and buying new shafts is not an option.  The options you are left with are:

1.  Lighter head+insert
2.  Longer fletchings.  (this should be your last resort as this doesn't solve the issue, just hides it.)

To give you an Idea however, I am shooting full length 5575's with 125g tips, and 5 inch feathers out of my 57lb recurve and they shoot almost perfect with a clean release.  So to me sounds like your spine is too weak???  

[boneaddict]

I am thinking about going to 3 5 inch fletch on a set of 7595s with weight inserts to boost my arrow weight.  THEN shoot like hell to see if I can dial back in before the big season.  Since I shoot 55s out of my other bow, I might duplicate the set up with them (spend another 100 smackers on the plastic) and then have a backup plan.

[Hornseeker]

Whats your first order of business this year, as far as hunting I mean?

Did you ever get your bares impacting with your feathered shafts at 20 or 30 yards? To really fine tune, if you can pull it off, as you get closer to tune, you can shoot them at like 50 yards. That will REALLY tell you whats going on. The Olympians shoot there bares with their fletched at 90 meters....

At that point though, you will get a flyer now and again  because of release issues....release has to be about perfect to get good flight at long distances with bare shafts.