Why out of state?!

[Swiftkid]

Almost 3000 views and not one picture of a buck in this thread......

[bobcat]

I'm from this state, 4th generation, and IMHO people who advocate "less" are brain dead from drinking too much WDFW Kool Aid. This crap about permit hunting and raising license fees to compensate for the loss of revenue is the same kind of nutty reasoning we fought tooth and nail back when I was at the old F&H News back in the 1980s.

I used to hear that whine from one of the old agency directors; "we have to settle for less, we're the smallest state with the biggest population" yadda yadda yadda..  Translation: "We're going to do less, deliver mediocre results, and we want to keep hunters out of the woods so they won't see what we're not doing."

The "big" population  stays in the city and swills latte. If they get farther than 10 yards off the sidewalk, pavement or a developed trail they are over their heads.  They run into a guy packing a gun in  the woods, they get the vapors and quickly try to put distance between themselves and us.

You must be living in the past Dave. Most of what you say is 100% wrong. We have decreasing populations of deer and elk, yet you want more liberal seasons. Nothing you say makes any sense. It may have sounded good 30 years ago, but Dave, this is the year 2010. Do you realize that? It's not 1975 anymore.

We have less habitat for deer and elk due to urban sprawl. We have increasing numbers of bears and cougars due to the people of this state voting to ban hound hunting and baiting. We have "Native Americans" taking advantage of their so called rights. We have more and more people wanting to hunt but less land open to hunting every year. We have longer seasons than ever before, with big game seasons and unlimited numbers of tags going from September 1st to December 31st. We have ATV's, inline muzzleloaders, compound bows, electronic rangefinders, cell phones, GPS, and internet message boards.

It's good that you're so passionate about what you believe in, but come on! I doubt if anyone at the WDFW takes anything you say seriously. And I wouldn't blame them. You're just way too far out in left field.

[muleyguy]

I just went to Missouri and got FOUR deer tags

Ohio has one species of deer. Washington has three.
At the time, Ohio's normal deer harvest during a one-week hunting season was approximately 90,000 deer. Washington's harvest was about half.

I think in Ohio they take more than 100,000 deer each season now, and in Washington?  Don't ask.

are you two seriously trying to compare WA state mule deer populations and hunter opportunities with Whitetail populations and hunter opportunities in Ohio and Missouri???

two completely different habitat requirements and two completely different deer species each with compeltely different characteristics;  

You can't even compare the whitetail populations equally;  when is the last time they had a devastating winter kill in missouri  for whitetails??  Even in Ohio, they get a little more winter, but, nothing like we can get in our whitetail areas.

do you two realize that whitetails have adapted VERY well to human encroachment and can thrive in a much more diverse habitat then mule deer??   When was the last time you heard of drought in Missouri and Ohio??  Do you realize they get much more precipitation then our whitetail areas??

I guess I could go on and on.....please do not take this offensively, but, the idea that you can somehow compare whitetail deer management back East with mule deer management in the state of WA is completely off the deep end.  

so, according to you two,  what is going to solve this state's problem is more opportunities on an already stressed deer populations, and all of us singing kum bay ya and getting along??  

What deer fairy is going to show up and magically sprinkle deer all over the place to make all this magic happen?

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I just went to Missouri and got FOUR deer tags

Ohio has one species of deer. Washington has three.
At the time, Ohio's normal deer harvest during a one-week hunting season was approximately 90,000 deer. Washington's harvest was about half.

I think in Ohio they take more than 100,000 deer each season now, and in Washington?  Don't ask.

are you two seriously trying to compare WA state mule deer populations and hunter opportunities with Whitetail populations and hunter opportunities in Ohio and Missouri???

two completely different habitat requirements and two completely different deer species each with compeltely different characteristics;  

You can't even compare the whitetail populations equally;  when is the last time they had a devastating winter kill in missouri  for whitetails??  Even in Ohio, they get a little more winter, but, nothing like we can get in our whitetail areas.

do you two realize that whitetails have adapted VERY well to human encroachment and can thrive in a much more diverse habitat then mule deer??   When was the last time you heard of drought in Missouri and Ohio??  Do you realize they get much more precipitation then our whitetail areas??

I guess I could go on and on.....please do not take this offensively, but, the idea that you can somehow compare whitetail deer management back East with mule deer management in the state of WA is completely off the deep end.  

so, according to you two,  what is going to solve this state's problem is more opportunities on an already stressed deer populations, and all of us singing kum bay ya and getting along??  

What deer fairy is going to show up and magically sprinkle deer all over the place to make all this magic happen?

Your spot on there...but WDFW could take some lessons in hunter relations from the Ohio Department of Natural Resources Wildlife Division.

[Machias]

We're not comparing the whitetail population we're comparing game management and game departments, who are listening and working for and with, not against hunters. Habitat enhancement, lots of things they are doing much better than we are here.  Heck I think their vehicle/deer collision are higher than our winter kill.  I'm not trying to say there aren't big challenges here, but those challenges are so poorly handled, the game out here doesn't seem to stand a chance.  I guess it all boils down to frustration.  Such a beautiful state with such GREAT potential....seemingly wasted.

[bobcat]

But what the WDFW does wrong, at least as far as deer and elk go, is they bend over backwards in trying to give hunters everything they want. Instead of managing by science, they manage by popular opinion. Most people say they want to hunt deer and elk every year, so they give us general seasons with unlimited numbers of over-the-counter tags. There is no control over how many people hunt each GMU. The only way they attempt to regulate the harvest is by the timing and length of the seasons.

So I don't see how you can say they are working against hunters. What they are doing is trying to sell "opportunity" to the most people possible. They are selling quantity rather than quality. So to say our fish & wildlife department is doing a poor job because they don't give us enough opportunity- well that is wrong. They are poor because they give us TOO MUCH opportunity.  They need to restrict the number of hunters more so that when we do get to hunt we have a quality experience.  

[GermanShorthair]

a trophy is measured by the experience and the adventure of hunting it not the size of animal 

[Machias]

There is no control over how many people hunt each GMU.

Your kidding right?

[bobcat]

There is no control over how many people hunt each GMU.

Your kidding right?

Wrong.

[muleyguy]

We're not comparing the whitetail population we're comparing game management and game departments

let's try this again.....you cannot compare how the missouri game department is doing vs the WA game department because the management challenges, the habitat, the deer species, the predators, the winters, the precipitation patterns, EVERYTHING is different between the two states;   Missouri has the luxury of being able to offer seasons like that because their habitat, deer species, and lack of winter kill can sustain MUCH HIGHER populations of deer then can our state.

so your argument is that if we just opened the season up, and let everybody shoot 3 deer, and hunt during the rut, like missouri does, that we would magically have all these deer running around?

please explain to me, in biological terms, exactly how that management scheme is going to result in more deer in WA state?

you want to know the biggest problem with WDFW???

it is that they do not have the balls to stand up to people like you who try and use arguments like the above ones to justify your desire to hunt every year as much as you can.

Somebody has to be the "adult" in all of this and protect the resource.........that SHOULD be the WDFW........

[Machias]

I was not advocating shooting multiple deer.....Ok fellas, I'll be adult and bow out of this, you guys keep standing up for a failed program and see how happy you are in the years to come.  Your absolutely right the states problems lie with hunters such as myself.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

We're not comparing the whitetail population we're comparing game management and game departments

let's try this again.....you cannot compare how the missouri game department is doing vs the WA game department because the management challenges, the habitat, the deer species, the predators, the winters, the precipitation patterns, EVERYTHING is different between the two states;   Missouri has the luxury of being able to offer seasons like that because their habitat, deer species, and lack of winter kill can sustain MUCH HIGHER populations of deer then can our state.

so your argument is that if we just opened the season up, and let everybody shoot 3 deer, and hunt during the rut, like missouri does, that we would magically have all these deer running around?

please explain to me, in biological terms, exactly how that management scheme is going to result in more deer in WA state?

you want to know the biggest problem with WDFW???

it is that they do not have the balls to stand up to people like you who try and use arguments like the above ones to justify your desire to hunt every year as much as you can.

Somebody has to be the "adult" in all of this and protect the resource.........that SHOULD be the WDFW........

Hopefully it doesn't come down to who has the biggest balls but rather hunters and the game department working together as a team. That can happen with better communication.  If that doesn't happen then we are all failing.  I will admit. I don't envy WDFW. They have way more management challenges to deal with than a lot of other states...not to mention you have the Federal Government stepping in to tell us that we can't kill wolves. Obviously that is/will quickly become a management problem. One more example of the Fed abusing their power and forgetting their power comes from the people.

[Machias]

One last thing before I bow out muleyguy. I have absoluetly no power, no influence over the WDFW, NONE what-so-ever.  So saying they need to grow a pair is silly.  Their decisions have been their own, not mine or guys like minded.  I have gone to all the meetings for three year plans for the last 15 years and have had ZERO impact.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

We're not comparing the whitetail population we're comparing game management and game departments

let's try this again.....you cannot compare how the missouri game department is doing vs the WA game department because the management challenges, the habitat, the deer species, the predators, the winters, the precipitation patterns, EVERYTHING is different between the two states;   Missouri has the luxury of being able to offer seasons like that because their habitat, deer species, and lack of winter kill can sustain MUCH HIGHER populations of deer then can our state.

so your argument is that if we just opened the season up, and let everybody shoot 3 deer, and hunt during the rut, like missouri does, that we would magically have all these deer running around?

please explain to me, in biological terms, exactly how that management scheme is going to result in more deer in WA state?

you want to know the biggest problem with WDFW???

it is that they do not have the balls to stand up to people like you who try and use arguments like the above ones to justify your desire to hunt every year as much as you can.

Somebody has to be the "adult" in all of this and protect the resource.........that SHOULD be the WDFW........

I don't think he meant to do the exact same thing as Missouri. I think he meant WDFW could do a better job managing game and working with hunters (but not to the detriment of game). I don't think you disagree with that.

I will say I have heard Missouri guys complain about their biologists and the Antler Restrictions.

[muleyguy]

machias; we both agree that the WDFW has done a poor job;  the difference between you and I is in the solutions........

states like missouri have the luxury of much easier game managment because their habitat is in such good condition and they have few if any predators and little or no winter kill;

and, what is historical fact is that much of the whitetails were eliminated from missouri in the early 1900's from overharvest;  what restored the herds and let them flourish was very STRICT regulations on hunting.

if you read their website it states all of this;  I can take the time to post the data, but, the data is clear from them;  they are not doing anything special in deer management (other then using hunting seasons very precisely to control deer populations)  because they do not have to, as their habitat and non-hunter mortality is essentially zero.

we have poor habitat (much of the reason for this cannot be solved by the WDFW);  we have much harsher winters (cannot be solved by the WDFW) and we have many more predators (some of this can be solved by WDFW); we have migratory big game populations that need critical wintering areas which happen to be in population areas (WDFW cannot solve this).

the primary "tool" the WDFW (and every other game department in the US) has is length of hunting seasons and tag numbers;  what is clear, is that what solved Missouri's deer problems earlier this century was strict restrictions on hunting harvest;  they rebuilt their deer herds, and took active managment of deer harvests from that point on;  this has given them the solid base of deer populations that they have today.

we need to do the same thing;  we need strict controls on harvest levels to stabilize the population so we can have time to work on the other factors which are long term factors, and, honestly, some of them might not be solvable;

I guess my question to you would be simple:  how do you propose the WDFW solve the mule deer problems in this state?  or do you even believe there is a problem in this state with mule deer numbers?

I have offered specific ideas;  what specifically does the WDFW need to do?