THEY'RE AT IT AGAIN

[ridge line]

Just ran to the local market to get some turkey cheer and as i pull into the store,past the fuel pumps i noticed a blue chev blazer getting fuel with one of those arkey racks on the back of the blazer with a cow elk straped to it.So being me i pulled up and asked him about the elk and which part of the malaga unit he had killed it. He told me that his Friend in the store had a late tag for this unit so i asked him again where he had shot the elk and he tells me that they went all the way to the south fork of the clockum to get this elk by now the bells are going off because that is a long way out of their unit and before i can say another word he tells me that his Friend is Indian @ that he has the right to harvest game year round and that i should mind my own business. :bid:I'm so po'd i light into him and start to tell him that I am a sportsman in my own words @we have rights to @ before i can say another word i look over my shoulder to see wenatchee's #1 tribal member getting in to the blazer. As they drove off i was yelling ever 4-letter word i could think of. what the hell; is this ever going to end

[JackOfAllTrades]

No, it will never never never end.

Get used to it!

[shedcrazy]

    I still say it is such bull *censored*, stay on the res...

[GooNiEs]

lol .....    im so sick of it...   i would of been so tempted to fix their tires for them......   

[Coastal_native]

Ridgeline,

What made you so angry?

A nontribal hunter hunting with a tribal hunter...
An Indian shot a cow elk...
They weren't being completely honest with you...
Or all of the above?

Just curious because I sometimes get a little intimidated by people when I'm transporting an animal on a tribal tag.  I've had some pretty scary confrontations before, so I'm always a little hesitant to come out and say that I'm a tribal hunter.

[Wazukie]

Sounds like a good way to get yourself shot to me, but I'm just a redneck from the Mountain 

[BAR C3]

Well here's a New Flash! Like it or Not, If you assault a Native because your pist they harvested an animal and your not able to hunt as they do, You will get lots of time and I will see ya in the joint. It well also be constituted as a Hate Crime so there's some more time!
Here's another Flash, you would be amazed of how many White Guys are all of sudden Native when they come to Prison. All of a sudden everyone is Cherokee. Not quite sure why the Natives don't ask for cards. The Natives are pretty much untouchable in the prisons. They don't get messed with!
So if you go to the joint for a crime against one, you will be joining them at the sweatlodge. Won't be to sweat either.
No worries Coastal!

[Skyvalhunter]

Well atleast there is a couple positives. They shot a cow, took it and didn't shoot a bull and just cut the horns off so maybe they were using the meat.

[Coastal_native]

Didn't mean to threadjack...I was just curious if it is best to be honest or to just except the fact that I'll be met with resentment and try to avoid confrontation at all cost.  I think I got my answer, thanks for your honesty Wazukie, that's why I like this Forum.

[ridge line]

I understand that tribes have certain hunting rights and grounds, however my question is why do you not have to hunt with a long bow only as the tribal ansesters did.  I also understand that tribal hunters are just trying to put food on the table, however my family can do very well with only 1 elk in our freezer a year when certain trebal members feel the need to hunt for the fun of it.  I am not trying to single anyone out I just would like someone to please help me understand why tribal hunters are allowed no rules when I have to abide by all the rules?

[carpsniperg2]

Well atleast there is a couple positives. They shot a cow, took it and didn't shoot a bull and just cut the horns off so maybe they were using the meat.

very good point! its when a guy finds a elk, that has its horns cut off and backstraps taken. then the rest of the animal is left to rot that makes me sick. there is bad apples in every bunch.  

Under stand your point coastal_native. from your posts that i have read, and the info you have shared you seem like a very nice person. Heck i would love to hunt with a good tribal member. I have been around some very bad ones. I think hunting with a tribal member that respects the animals would be a very nice change,as to what i have seen and been around. No one should judge any kind of people because of the bad ones.   i don't say much on this subject. But felt i needed to add my  

[Coastal_native]

I can write a book and still not give you the answers that will ease your frustrations...and that just makes it more frustrating.  I think a big part of it is that there is not enough resources for everybody to be completely happy and even if tribes stopped hunting alltogether there still wouldn't be.  Tribes do have rules and regs, the seasons and bag limits are just so liberal that compared to state rules it probably doesn't seem like they do.  As far as the historical hunting methods...that is a popular question.  My best (BS) answer is...because new technology has made us more effecient killers, we've now instituted bag limits and seasons in an attempt to curtail harvest...something that we didn't do historically.  So, yes hunting methods have changed, but so have game management practices.

As for the hunting for the fun of it...its not too different then living back east and being able to kill 8 deer a year, or being wealthy enough to go all over the US killing trophy deer and elk all year.  Some people do it just because they can.  Tribal designated hunter programs also make it seem like one person may be harvesting an excessive amount of animals, but its a good program.  You get to fill peoples freezers who need the meat and don't have hunters in their family, plus you get to do what you love...hunt.

There is definately some bad apples out there that take advantage of their treaty rights and break tribal game laws...my advice would be to not categorize them as tribal hunters, but poachers instead...because every hunter (tribal or nontribal) hates poachers.

Anyway, Ridgeline, I thought maybe there was something specific that made you mad about this encounter...was it a nontribal hunter with a tribal hunter?  Is wenatchee's #1 tribal member a notorious poacher?

[colockumelk]

Coastal I think what he meant by #1 tribal hunter is that there are a few Yakamas that are very notoraious for harvesting large numbers of bucks and bulls in their winter range down low where everyone can see.  Many many many people have seen them many mnay times come down from the mountains with multiple bucks or bulls in the back of their truck. They never shoot does or cows. Like you said every group has bad apples.

This is why many want to see some changes. Far too many Yakamas take advantage of the laws. We get sick of the amount of bull tags decrease every year while at the same time seeing bulls and bucks shot in their winter range and at the feed stations. Because of the Yakamas the WDFW closed two feed stations to the public to protect the bulls from the Yakamas. They also gated the mudlake and wenas to protect the deer on their winter range.

What the Yakamas do is legal by their regs. But just because its legal doesn't make it right or ethical or moral or responsible. Of course the Yaks try to deny any of this. Which is why they REFUSE to do harvest reports or help the WDFW Biologists. Because they know if they did then they couldn't deny their impact on the herds. 

Most of us are sick of paying for what the Yakamas do with stiffer and more restrictive game regs. Things need to change so the regs CANT be taken advantage of. Most Yakamas are law abiding citizens. And just like people of all races we will take whatever the law will allow. THE PROBLEM is NOT the people its their government and the current regulations.

Here's how our hunting has changed in the Colockum since 2000.
Branch Permits have been reduced by 80%
NO Antlerless Permits are issued.
Muzzle Loaders lost their late season
Muzzle Loaders lost their general season. Only one Muzzle Loader hunter a year can hunt for elk in the Coloclum
Archers went to spike only.
EVERYONE WENT to True Spike Only

Meanwhile the branch numbers have been reduced by 70%. Every year we harvest less and less with Korea restrictions while every year because of word of mouth the Yakamas kills more and more. We are doing our part we're just wondering when they'll step up take responsibility and do their part?

[ICEMAN]

I interpreted the comment as meaning NOTHING will change, that the court will not reinterpret the treaties, and that nobody is going to play cowboy and Indians again.... 

[Wazukie]

Didn't mean to threadjack...I was just curious if it is best to be honest or to just except the fact that I'll be met with resentment and try to avoid confrontation at all cost.  I think I got my answer, thanks for your honesty Wazukie, that's why I like this Forum.

Hey Coastal, my comment was directed toward the OP and anyone else who is confrontational with the Natives or anyone else in such a manner..  I have a lot of friends who are of the Nation that is most hated on this forum, I'm a Pastor and I minister to many of them,.  Its sad, just like the white folk, the few give the many a bad name. Just my observation over the years. 

[high country]

what is gonna happen when the native population gets diminished to nonexsitant numbers because of breeding with non-natives? will they reduce the % requirements at that point to keep the traditions alive?

[MAVsled]

There is definately some bad apples out there that take advantage of their treaty rights and break tribal game laws...my advice would be to not categorize them as tribal hunters, but poachers instead...because every hunter (tribal or nontribal) hates poachers.

there it is and spot on.
I have witnessed good & bad tribal hunters in the field, both west and east of the Cascades. It seems the good ol boys are gone, with very few left with any hunting ethics. For once, I'd like to see or read where tribal authority apprehended tribal violators and actually penalized those severely* for their violations of tribal laws.
*as in what the WDFW would do to non-tribal violators of their regulations.

For years I talked with a Yakama tribal hunter in the 356, off 1500 rd. He shared good info about the area and the talks around his campfire were enlightening with his experience. He had respect for the elk and deer.
it appears in print as if Coastal is one of the few.

[uplandhunter870]

might as well just get used to it ridge line, thats simply the way it is and the way it will be for the rest of our lifes. no sense having a heart attack over something you cant change or control.

[Coastal_native]

Far too many Yakamas take advantage of the laws. We get sick of the amount of bull tags decrease every year while at the same time seeing bulls and bucks shot in their winter range and at the feed stations. Because of the Yakamas the WDFW closed two feed stations to the public to protect the bulls from the Yakamas. They also gated the mudlake and wenas to protect the deer on their winter range.

What the Yakamas do is legal by their regs. But just because its legal doesn't make it right or ethical or moral or responsible. Of course the Yaks try to deny any of this. Which is why they REFUSE to do harvest reports or help the WDFW Biologists. Because they know if they did then they couldn't deny their impact on the herds. 

Most of us are sick of paying for what the Yakamas do with stiffer and more restrictive game regs. Things need to change so the regs CANT be taken advantage of. Most Yakamas are law abiding citizens. And just like people of all races we will take whatever the law will allow. THE PROBLEM is NOT the people its their government and the current regulations.

Colockumelk,

I noticed on another thread that someone posted Yakima Nation's Tribal Wildlife Code.  According to tribal law the feeding stations are closed to hunting from Dec 15th to March 31st.  Do you guys still see them hunting the feeding stations during those time frames?  Does the state ever issue population control tags on the feeding areas?  What is the time period that the elk really start to use the feeding stations heavily?

Also....I'm still not sure I agree with you about the regs and tribal government being the problem.  Our state and federal government have laws that enable us with the tools to do horrible unethical things everyday, like allowing us to own guns or to drink alcohol...but I'm a firm believer that guns don't kill people...people kill people.

After rereading that analogy I can see some false logic in it...but I really thought I had a point, so I don't want to delete it.

Hey, did you make it home for the holidays....where ever home is?  I remember you said you were out of state.

Don't forget to give thanks to my ancestors for helping your ancestors make it through there first few winters here on this beautiful continent!  That was a joke...probably in poor taste given the topic of the thread.

[Thenewguy]

someone please delete the crap in this thread. I am really learning alot from Coastal.

[TheHunt]

BAR C3 is right on with his comments regarding prison.  I went to high school with a person who just got out of serving eight years.   He said the samething.  The indians do not get messed with.  There is a skin head group that also do not get messed with as well.  He was in the Oregon State Pen... 

[BlackRidge]

.....Hmm this thread went off in an interesting direction

Thanks Coastal

[colockumelk]

Nah coastal that was pretty funny. Hey did you hear about Angelina Jolie and Thanksgiving. Silly hippy actors.

As for the Yakamas hunting the feed stations. They are not supposed to but the ones that got caught didn't get in trouble. The Yakamas have rules but they don't "police" their own. The closures I stated above happened because of the Yakamas. I understand that every group has bad apples but the difference between us and them is we convict and punish our bad apples. The Yakamas don't. Do they have laws yes they do. Do they enforce them... NO!!!

So the question remains how long do we sit idle and let one untouchable group of people rape the game herds? (I don't advocate violance. Deer and elk are not worth harm to other human beings. When I say do something I mean court rulings,  attending council meetings and other act of diplomacy) And remember the Yakamas don't contribute ANYTHING to elk or deer.

As far as making it home sadly no. Its okay I hear its pretty cold in WA. I'd probably die. It was 80 yesterday.

[TikkaT3-270Shortmag]

Why does a good thread always get jacked.  Quit whining folks and make your voice heard.  Im so tired of hearing the bitching on here its like high school.  Gets old real quick.  We cant go around acting like police officers then run home to your computer and bitch about it. Take the proper actions if you think something illegal being done.  Did you call a gamie?

[Michelle_Nelson]

BAR C3 and FC.  Quit taunting each other.  Quit talking to each other all billy bad ass.  I've deleted 1/3 of this thread because of your useless dribble. 

[boneaddict]

What would fire many of you up is its not Sustinence met they are after.  THEY ARE SELLING IT.   Good money in meat.  Just as much as the antlers on ebay.   Its not to feed a needy family on the rez.

[Coastal_native]

What would fire many of you up is its not Sustinence met they are after.  THEY ARE SELLING IT.   Good money in meat.  Just as much as the antlers on ebay.   Its not to feed a needy family on the rez.

That does fire me up...I hate hearing about game meat getting sold illegally on the black market, or butcher shops getting busted being involved in that crap.  I also don't understand why people want to sell their antlers...I see it all the time though...people selling their antlers or trophies, it happens all over the world.

I'd love to know specifically who "they" are, because they're giving people who do provide meat to needy families a bad name.

I think I know who "they" aren't...they're not Indians...or Yakima's...or nontribal hunters...or rednecks.

I'm pretty sure "they" are unethical, ignorant people that need to be policed by who ever their governing body is.

[julzzz]

I heard that Natives can harvest a goat and sheep every year.  It takes as a lifetime for us to draw just one tag.  I heard this straight from a native juvenile.  between 16 and 18 yrs old.  It doesn't make it fact, he could be just blowin smoke.

[Michelle_Nelson]

I believe the Colville tribal hunters have to put in for a drawing.  The way I understood it is we have say 4 tags and they get 4 tags to draw.  That is for sheep.  I am not sure about goat.

[BAR C3]

If you have a prolem with my "authority" as you like to call it, I really could care less.  Couple people posted on this thread asking for it to be cleaned up.  I saw no point in leaving posts where 2 guys were throwing taunts at each other to get a reaction out of the other.   

I'm okay with you deleting it Michelle. Your Right, it did get out of hand especially on Thanksgiving. So I apologize. When it becomes personal, I get pretty mad and say what I really think.

[Michelle_Nelson]

I can understand that.   

[shedcrazy]

 

[colockumelk]

You are right Coastal 100%. That is the problem. The governmg body turns a blind eye. Both the Yakamas and the state. People are people. If they can get away with something they'll do it. Which is why I don't blame the people. I blame the system that allows the waste and abuse. And its not just the Yakamas Nation. Our state is just at guilty for not curbing it as the Yakamas are.

As far as the sheep and goats go. Its a federally regulated animal. They have to get drawn just like us. They just get drawn more often because there is a much smaller tribal pool to draw from than the state.  I have no issue with this.

[Little Dave]

I was just curious if it is best to be honest or to just except the fact that I'll be met with resentment and try to avoid confrontation at all cost.

Resentment is a price to pay for inequity.  It's kind of how this country got started in the first place.

Better alignment between state and tribal regulations and quotas would help.  Years from now when our country falls apart over internal issues of inequity (our city boycotts your state, that state gets special tax exemptions) and new nations are formed from a broken, bankrupt union, the treaties and interpretations of the treaties will no longer be in effect.  Very likely, there will be no special recognition at all from that point on.  If asked, I would forsake the cultural heritage if that is what it would take to curb further exploitation of the generous special rights.  The tribes of the West Coast would become footnotes in history like the Etruscans of Italy.

It's just a hypothetical of course.  My advice is to be inconspicuous as possible.

[billythekidrock]

One resource...One set of rules.

[h20hunter]

" I heard" is where some of the issue start. I agree with one of the earlier posts says thanks to coastal for his info, I've learned a bit more as well. I also agree that the majority of the tribal members are not the "problem". The problem I speak of is setting a bad example. There will alwasy be problem people in any demogrpahic wheter it be age, race, gender, or whatever. Rates for teen drivers are higher because there are always going to be a few dumb**s young guys that total mom and dads car. There will always be the one guy in the bar that wants to get drunk and look for a fight. There will always be guy with the spotlight in his truck and a phd on the wall. Just like there will always be a tribal member that takes advantage of his allowences his people have given. Just like everywhere else it is up to his/her social peers to educate and change the behaviour for the better good of the whole. Yes, the state and tribes could work better together......but get this: So could sport hunters and tribal hunters. Anger and confrontation are never going to work for either group.

I imagine most people that are regulars on the forum saw "Tribal Toad" in the deer section. It was a masher muley. The fella holding it for the camera was guiding with an outfitter I went with for my fathers mule deer hunt this year. I can tell you that I leaned a lot about what he believes and "how they hunt". He told me about some of the deer and regions they have access to. Mule deer that die of old age and never see a hunter. Monster deer and massive elk. He also told us about their customs and thought that goes into each kill. Listening to him talk I could see that he was very passionate. I would challenge anyone that has a problem with the tribes to disagree with the things he said. He told us about when a boy brings home his first animal and becomes a man. About how he would take the animal and pass it out to the tribe, keeping nothing for himself. He told us about the care and thought that goes into the kill and the respect for the animal after the kill. He was not taking pictures and slapping hands. He was looking after the soul of the animal and giving thanks. You may think that he could have been putting on a bit of a show for the "whiteys" in camp but listening and watching this was no sideshow for our benefit. He lived this. These were his ways and that of his people.

We could all benefit from some of the examples the majority of the tribes represent. We could also do without the example the minority (and most often the most visible) put forth.

The same could be said for non-tribal hunters.

What good will come from standing on the pavement getting in somebodys face and yelling. By doing so in my opinion you are no better than the so called #1 violater.

[billythekidrock]

" I heard" is where some of the issue start.

I agree.
That is only baseless fuel for the fire.

We could all benefit from some of the examples the majority of the tribes represent. We could also do without the example the minority (and most often the most visible) put forth.

But what if the majority of the examples in someones experience are negative?
 Yes, I get that "all colors" have some negative people, but what if the amount of negatives (when it comes to wastage) is predominantly tribal?
Having lived, hunted (and family members) near and with tribal members from multiple tribes, I have seen both positive and negative actions. The problem is that most of them are negative when it comes to waste. I am not talking about hunting outside of a F&W season.  Everything from only taking hindquarters, to selling meat in bar parking lots to hanging animals rotting on front porches and in garages.

[boneaddict]

The people themselves seem quite nice.  I just ran into a whole truckload and they were friendly as I was.  As mentioned, its the system.  They may have been hunting for family, they may have been commercial hunters.  I always enjoy the irony of it all.  Commercial hunting is what killed the buffalo........ and tribal hunters all with guns while whiteman are hunting with bows.  


as for I heard.....I see all the time

[boneaddict]

Colvilles have some limit and I never see them doing it for commercial reasons.  DIFFERENT story for the Yakamas

[h20hunter]

I think that the problem with "the majority of examples are all bad" is that I don't see it because of my location. Simply a difference of opinion based on my location and experience. Hell, the most interaction I get with tribes is going to boom city or the casino for some reason or another. Typically I would say that because the worst examples, like the guy selling meat in the bar parking lot, are the most visible and therefore the most infuriating. Your location gives you a much different perspective than mine.

Good points, thanks for sharing.

[logger]

It's a well known fact that you can go to wapato and buy an elk, whole, half , cut and wrapped. whatever suits you can be purchased.