multiple season permits draw II

[E-Town Hunter]

I just got done reading the post on the Department of fish and wildlife's web site about how they screwed up the draw by allowing people to apply for them in groups and the results were invalid because groups were selected for the permits. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN!!! Their program must be so full of holes its not even funny.

Has anyone heard what day this week they are holding the new drawing? The other thing that is a bunch of crap is the small handful of people that already paid for their permits after seeing that they were drawn in the first drawing are still being allowed to purchase the tags. I don't feel that is right.

[billythekidrock]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/do/newreal/release.php?id=apr0908a

WDFW will conduct a new drawing
for multiple-season hunting permits


OLYMPIA - The Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) will hold a new drawing for 2008 multiple-season hunting permits after invalidating a drawing conducted last week due to a technical error.

The new drawing for 1,500 multiple-season deer permits and 500 multiple-season elk permits will be completed by Friday, April 11. Approximately 8,500 people purchased applications for the drawing.

Winners of the new drawing will be eligible to purchase special permits allowing them to participate in multiple general hunting seasons - including archery, muzzleloader and modern-firearm hunts - rather than just a single type of season.

WDFW Director Jeff Koenings said the department will initiate a new validation process - involving additional agency managers and a citizen representative - to provide broader oversight over future drawings and ensure the results are valid.

"We all agree that the problems we have experienced with permit drawings are unacceptable," Koenings said. "Our customers deserve better, and we are dedicated to putting a new system in place that will ensure accurate and transparent results the first time."

Dave Ware, WDFW game manager, said the initial drawing was invalidated because groups of hunters were allowed to apply for the permits. Group applications are allowed for most special-permit hunts, but participation in multiple-season permit drawings is limited to individuals under state regulations.

"Including those group applications changed the results of the initial drawing, so we need to redraw to ensure a fair outcome," Ware said. "We apologize to any hunters who were inconvenienced or disappointed by the invalidation of the first drawing."

Although WDFW did not formally announce the results of the initial drawing, results of that draw were reflected in hunters' online accounts with the department, Ware said. Some department personnel also advised hunters about the results of the initial drawing before realizing it was invalidated, Ware said.

About a half-dozen hunters who purchased permits based on that information will be allowed to use them this season, Ware said.

[Wea300mag]

Those who were drawn should have hurried and bought your permits once the news hit the web.

That's good info for the future.

[billythekidrock]

About a half-dozen hunters who purchased permits based on that information will be allowed to use them this season, Ware said.

What a crock!
Why do they get to keep the permit if it wasn't valid? Is it because it would be too hard to get the money back? It only costs the state about $50 bucks to cut a warrant.

[SuperDave]

Those who were drawn should have hurried and bought your permits once the news hit the web.

That's good info for the future.

  Can't wait for the next draw!  I'm all over it!!

[rackattack]

WOW!!  I guess I should have bought mine last week. What an increase in applicants.  Last year there was just over 6200, now this year they're telling us 8500 people.  Holy smokes!!!

[rackattack]

Some department personnel also advised hunters about the results of the initial drawing before realizing it was invalidated, Ware said.

  Would be nice to have a department personnel as a friend in this case, I'm guessing that's the half dozen that bought their tags.

[PolarBear]

And to think those incompetent bastages still get a paycheck for f-ing things up time and time again!

[Coasthunterjay]

And to think those incompetent bastages still get a paycheck for f-ing things up time and time again!

now thats funny......

incompatent......thats a nice way of putting it...........

[boneaddict]

This is how it works for OUTDOOR CENTRAL Non-residents in Idaho.......  The bill you a 3% convienence fee if you use the interent....now, for a resident that might be a buck or two......When you apply for a $1800 goat permits......Its like $80 for the same job.  NICE>>>>by the way, I see no convienence in that FEE.

[Jackjr]

Can you even put in for a multi-season tag as a group.  I put in for mine online and did not see that option.  A friend of mine bought his at a store and was put in without doing anything.  O Ya he was drawn for both.  Maybe he will have better luck in the next draw.  The whole thing just does not make since. 

[bobcat]

Can you even put in for a multi-season tag as a group.  I put in for mine online and did not see that option. 

Apparently some BRILLIANT people found a way!   

[Jackjr]

I guess we need to weed them out of the hunting gene pool

[Moosehunt]

I don't post much, but I do post when something like this happens.  I was drawn for Multi-Season Deer.  I did a screen print of the results so I could have something to go after them with in the event this happened.  Incompetency is one thing, but then getting kicked in the nuts and suckered punched by allowing those to keep permits that were already paid for is downright ludicrous.  Think about it this way.  The game department posted a drawing for 1500 people for deer, 500 for elk.  Now they have done one of two things to everyone (all 8500 people) who applied.  The first, they have permits that are spoken for that are inclusive of the number yet to be drawn, ie. 1500 permits for deer and 6 were spoken for, leaving 1494 (whatever the number really is) available to you and I.  Or the second, they have added to, made extra permits exclusive of the drawing there by increasing the number of permits available to you and I, i.e 1500 plus the number, so let's say 1507 or something.  Either way, we were led down the garden path and the advertisement of x number of permits was false, misleading and frankly criminal in nature.

I have grown weary of this.  To think that I have donated my time and efforts on a very large scale to fundraising for wildlife in this state.  I sat in front of Koenigs last summer after the drawing fiasco and watched him lie right to 20 faces.  Here he goes again taking a model paintbrush to tackle 20,000 sf of wall.

[jackelope]

i can't figure out how, if the results were never validated, these 6 hunters were able to buy the permits in the first place.

[Outfitter]

It has to be the money! I have had 6 of our non resident hunters tell me they drew and there $1700. Is there now a new draw or just BS.

[Ray]

6 permits doesnt bother me none. I don't think it will be a factor when it comes to the overall seasonal harvest number. Might as well let em have it I say. It's not those guys faults it is the WDFW...

[Moosehunt]

I guess that's not the point I'm trying to make.  Sour grapes....yes, I'll give you that but the WDFW can not allow the Hunters that purchased the Tags to keep them.  I could have...I saw the multi-season tag on my profile, line item 141, was available for purchase for 164.25.  Had I clicked on the tag and bought my license right then and there I would be one of the ones that get to keep the tag.  i just didn't do it.

Why can't I buy it now?  I have proof I was drawn...thanks to a screen print of my profile.  Guys, it's all or none.  No exceptions.  If we allow exceptions to exists, we allow the WDFW the opportunity to make these mistakes without consequence.  And for the record, it wasn't Outdoor Centrals problem.  It was an idiot inside of the WDFW that made the decision.  A decision that he was not authorized to make and one that has everyone here pissed about

[SuperDave]

It's a good plan on there part,  Now they get all there money right away cause everyone is going to buy it the second they find out. 

Way to go WDFW!!! not only have you figured out ways to make more money from hunters, now you've found a way to get it way in advance.

It has to be the money! I have had 6 of our non resident hunters tell me they drew and there $1700. Is there now a new draw or just BS.

  I totally agree with both these statements! I wonder what will be next?

[Ray]

I guess that's not the point I'm trying to make.  Sour grapes....yes, I'll give you that but the WDFW can not allow the Hunters that purchased the Tags to keep them. 

Not sure if that would stand up in a legal situation.

[YellowDog]

Just FYI when I purchased my multi season permits I noticed that there was an option to apply as a group permit.  I thought WTF and called the WDFW.  The gal that originally answered said no that should not be an option and actually logged on to their system using my WILD ID number.  She was like, hmm that's not right I'll check into it and call you back.  I say okay, when do you think you will call because if I can apply as a group I would like to do so and the deadling is in a few days?  Oh, I'll call you back today or tomorrow.  No call that day or the next (Friday).  I called again on Monday or Tuesday and the guy that answered said, no you can't apply as a group and everyone that purchased an application is automatically in the drawing.  He said that they are working on having the group option available for next year though. 

I'm not really blaming anyone for the actual screwed up drawings but there is no reason that the WDFW puts up with this.  Whether it is their employees, Outdoor Central, Hillary Clinton, the bottom line is that WDFW takes our money and we deserve to have competent people conducting the draws that we pay for.  The WDFW is responsible for making sure the draws are done correctly and if Outdoor Central can't do it (obviously they can not) then its time to hire someone else.

I'm not going to get too worked up about the 6 permits that were allowed to be purchased.  I don't agree with letting them keep them but that's not the big picture issue for me.  Getting the draws done right and restoring any semblance of confidence in the system is.

[Dman]

 

[rosscrazyelk]

I am not quite sure  but was not the company who did the draw last year called great northwest  now it is outdoor central? are they the same company just changed names? Maybe this site should take over the draw process to get it done right.

[CJ-5]

Thats right.  The draws just need to be done correctly, bottom line.  Us hunters having to put up with this multiple times is a bunch of garbage.  When you pay for something, (in our case the permit apps.) you expect the job to be done right.  The WDFW, or whoever is responsible for the drawing needs to understand this, plain and simple.  Quit jacking us around and do the job right.

[doveman10]

Does anybody on here know the reason why they don't want these tags to be available for draw by a group?  Why does it have to be just a single application?  I'll admit, I am one of the "brilliant" folks that put in with a group.  It's been my complaint every year the multiple weapon drawing has occurred that you couldn't put in as a party.  When I applied this year and they gave me the option to put in as a party I thought great, they finally are allowing it.  I didn't realize it was a mistake.

My hunting pals and I always put in for the special permits as a group.  We all go or nobody goes.  It would be nice for all of us to have the multiple weapon permit so that we could put in for the premium hunts with different weapons.  As it has been, where you can only put in single applications for the multiple weapon permit, unless we all get drawn for it (which has not happened yet) we can't all put in for the special permits together for different weapons.

It doesn't even have to be for special permit purposes.  I typically hunt with the same guys.  Last year I got drawn and bought the multiple season permit.  I bought it hoping they would get drawn on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th, etc. redraw.  They actually did get the notice they drew, but not until after we had already learned we got drawn for a premium late archery hunt.  WHY WOULD ANYONE BUY IT THEN???  I don't like to hunt alone, so I wasted by money!  I took my chances that they would get drawn and I paid for it.

The game department needs to allow party permits for the multiple weapon permits and they need to be paid for in advance to eliminate the redraw crap they've encountered the previous two years! IMHO

[billythekidrock]

I am not quite sure  but was not the company who did the draw last year called great northwest  now it is outdoor central? are they the same company just changed names?

Outdoor Central has been doing it the last few years. Before it was Great Lodge. Yes, same group.

[billythekidrock]

Does anybody on here know the reason why they don't want these tags to be available for draw by a group?  Why does it have to be just a single application?   

Probably because someone in the group would not purchase the permit for one reason or another. (not that it doesn't happen already.)

[Gobble]

Has anyone heard when the new results get posted?

[FISHBOY]

They are posted.

[Shadow Cat]

This what I sent to them...

Dear Dr. Jeffrey P. Koenings,
I think I can speak for many in Washington who are few up with the mistakes AKA “technical error” that have been made when it comes to draws. On one hand, we see that we had been drawn for a species and the next we have not been. Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife is a state government agency, meaning you are the people’s employees and work for us, the citizens of Washington. If you were an employer, would you put up with your employees constantly making mistakes like this? I some how doubt it, so why should we? WDFW has gotten to the point that it has forgotten who it works for and needs to be reminded.
We that had been drawn and then lost tags in the second drawing feel we are entitled to a refund of our money. We paid for a draw and had received what we purchased: 1 DRAWING PER SPECIES. We did NOT pay for the opportunity to loose a tag that we had drawn. I understand that over the years it has become common for a political candidate to demand a recount after an election because they did not like the results. Well, this is NOT politics so leave that can of worms to the politicians and stop following their bad example.
I myself work in the IT field so if you need QUALITY IT personnel to do the job right, then start here with someone who understands the outdoors peoples issues. There needs to be a quality assurance system in place to ensure that mistakes are not repeated.
Please feel free to contact me to discuss this matter in more detail.

Sincerely,

Bob

[Gobble]

Good Post.

I got shafted twice in a year    Can't understand how some people on the board were drawn last year and drawn again this year. That stinks for the rest of us who don't get drawn (nothing persaonal) but what they hey, I'm a sore loser I guess 

[steeleywhopper]

I don't know if I am missing something here, but I can't see on the website where any draw results are posted. The only thing posted is bear and cougar results. I don't trust the "back door" draw history due to the fact that it says 3/27/08 for the draw date.

[rackattack]

I think in this case the "back door" method is the correct results.  They have a statement saying that the draw done on the 11th was correct, so the you see are final.  Lost my elk tag , but did learn that any time I see results posted on there, I need to go buy the tag.  Just think of all those people last year that lost their OIL tags on the first draw.  I wonder if the WDFW would have let them keep their tags................

[boneaddict]

Don't worry, they will have at least three more drawings before its all said and done for those that put in but really didn't want the tag anyway. 

[Wea300mag]

Bone is right, since I was drawn to hunt MT (just found out today), I will most likely not purchase the Elk permit I was drawn for. It was all a timing thing, I put in for the multi-season permit to insure I had plenty of hunting time available. Now, since I will be in MT for two weeks, it's not needed anymore.

[Webfoot]

 Thats why it should be mandatory to put up the 164 bucks to get in the drawing.

John

[Wea300mag]

Webfoot,

I agree that's how it should be for this permit and for the once in a lifetime permits for moose, goat, and sheep too. It could have easily worked the other way for me. If I didn't get drawn for MT, I would have immediately bought the multi-season elk permit, then if I were drawn for a special elk permit over the summer, I would have likely never used the multi-season permit. When it's all said and done, I look at all my odds, costs, etc and make the best decision for me.

Dan

[PolarBear]

Yep, go back to having to pay up front for applications and it will weed out a ton of folks who are going at it half adzed. 

[billythekidrock]

Yep, go back to having to pay up front for applications and it will weed out a ton of folks who are going at it half adzed. 

I would love to have it go back to that, but how do we offset the cost of them cutting checks and the lower amount (permit ap fee) of people applying?

Do we allow them to keep our money in a special fund? I would let them keep mine for a few years. Maybe they could release it only once a year if you never applied again?

Or do we pay $10 per OIL as a permit ap fee?

[WDFW Hates ME!!!]

Colorado charges you 25 to buy a point, prety cheap if you ask me. Oregon is 84 i think because you have to buy a license. WA is the cheapest. They could make more, but i think they would rather stick it to us that live here than to the out of staters.

[E-Town Hunter]

Looks like its a big NO this year for me. Didn't get drawn and the lady said I was 2200 or something in line for the redraws. Oh well at least I know and can concentrate my efforts in one season.

[Moosehunt]

I have the Asst WA State Attorney General - the liason from the AG office to WDFW - looking into the drawing, mistake, poor decision and re-draw.  He and I had a great discussion.  He was aware of the redraw but no one had asked him to look into the legality of the decisions made.  I think the single largest issue for me (and hopefully) most of you, is the fact that 5-6 people got to keep the permit they purchased during the period of time from the 1st draw until the WDFW pulled the Permit from each hunters profile.  I was advised on numerous occasions from those inside the WDFW, some of high rank, that it was just to difficult to track down those that made the purchase and then equally as difficult to give a refund.  This is the crux of the redraw.  All or none - not some and then the rest.  The next step in this will be to contact the State's Ethics Board and make a complaint about this issue.  Something will come of it.  If any of you are interested in reading, check out the RCW 9.46.400 - Wildlife Raffles.  It basically states that the WDFW is not regulate by the Gambling Commission.  What I want to know is 'Who is regulating what is being done when Price-Chance-and Consideration is given.'  This means a lottery.   The WDFW takes our money and then changes the rules three-quarters of the way through to suit there needs, especially after a mistake is made.  The other piece of information we need is the 5-6 people that ended up with the permits (you know - the ones that got to participate in the first drawing and not forced to be part of the second) - this is all about Public Disclosure.  They have to give it.  Once we have it - let's see if there are any relationships that are questionable.

Too many questions, suspicions etc to make me say 'better luck next time.'

[nwhunter]

So if you drew one of these tags can you purchase it online or do you have to buy it from a store vendor? Looks like I better hurry up and get it bought before it gets taken away! nwhunter

[steeleywhopper]

Called the fish and game office today and found out I got the Deer tag. Watch out big boys here I come. Gonna be hunting for a trophy this year.

[WDFW-SUX]

 

[Webfoot]

Moosehunt
Keep diggin. Let us know what you come up with.
I would also like to know who those handfull of people were that were allowed their own personal draw for these tags.
Especially curious if they are in any way connected with the WDFW.

John

[billythekidrock]

Especially curious if they are in any way connected with the WDFW.

That would be my question as well.

[Ghost Hunter]

I did a little better on the 2nd go-round   Got drawn for a deer tag.  Might get to use the smokepole this year

[saylean]

just bought my multiseason deer....man...they could at least kiss me behind the ear....