Undergunned??????

[mattaylor81]

I currently carry a Ruger GP100 357Mag loaded with Federal CastCore 180gr when hunting or camping in the backcountry.  Do you all consider this a capable caliber/load combination for a sidearm in the WASHINGTON backcountry, or am I undergunned?

[257 Wby Mag]

Your right on the money Matt. I pack a Springfield XD 357, 357 Sig , with 125 grain Speer Gold Dots.

[PacificNWhunter]

I don't usually carry anything when I am out and about camping, if it's high traffic season I might throw the 9mm in the pack.

[CP]

No one with a .357 is undergunned, it is the most effective handgun round period.   A 180 gr. round won’t be my first choice, I prefer 125 or 145 JHP. 

[mattaylor81]

I was actually asking about it being used as a sidearm for protection from the 4 legged variety (bears, cougars, etc).  I wouldn't use a 180gr Hardcast for home protection.

[boneaddict]

I suppose if you are in a fire fight with a Mac 10 or M16 you might be a little undergunned, but for anything else, I'd way rather have a 357. than just about any other gun, except maybe a .41,  Anything that will split through an engine block is worth shooting at a bad guy or bear.

[mossback91]

357 great for shooting tweakers and such. A 44 is what I call great because if he has buddies the noise will make them run haahah and the size of the hole that just got blown through their buddy

[bucklucky]

You are undergunned, you should be packin a 500 smith instead
Just kiddin, 357 is perfect. Its what my wife packs.......LOOK OUT!!!!

[Coasthunterjay]

Honestly i believe you are a little undergunned as you say. but carrying a gun is better than no gun at all. the noise alone would probably scare an animal away more so than it actually being shot......if you shoot a really pissed off bear with a 357 you may detir him from attacking you any farther, but if it doesnt you are screwed. He is just going to keep comming at you.....

You at a minimum are going to want to carry a 357. for what you are talking about, but for in actual case. I would rather hold a gun in my hands that is actually going to put STOPPING power onto an animal or person. And a 9 mm is deffinantly not good enough....

There is a reason why all military(and i am military and the CG has recently just switched over to sig 40 cals) are switching over to 40. caliber pistols or  higher....Because of the drugged out tweekers which would be the same as an over powered animal.....They arent being stopped by 9 mm. they get shot and keep comming. same with smaller bullets.....you want something with stopping power.

Recommend a 40, 41, 44, or 45. something that gives out huge muzzle velocity and Bullet velocity. you want something that comes out screaming and when it hits its target. throws the target back off of its feet........BAMM!

my fav, would be the 40 or 44.....Lots of options out there.

Also, honestly speaking i carry Mace(pepper spray) a small can that attaches to my camel back and i have heard and seen research that proves that it is 10x more effective on animals, such as bears than shooting them.....huge bears are not going to stop unless something really fases them. and a bear may see you as a meal and he aint stopping if thats what he thinks, but mace completely shuts down a victim and messes there world up. Being in Law enforcement i have had to be sprayed and i promise you one thing, i think ide rather be shot than sprayed ever again.........i had a women instructor say she would rather have twins over being sprayed again, and she already had three kids.....she said it was worse than pregnancy, by far!

Cheeper, lighter, possably more effective, and a larger spray area(incase you are shaking from fright and cant shoot it correctly you have a wide spray range on a good can of mace.....)

Good advice!..... Watch a bear hunting video and watch what the first thing the guys pulls out of there pack is.....a big can of mace(paper spray). Thats because it works better

Think of it as a cheep insurance policy.......im sure you can pick a small one up at your local sporting store for 6 bucks.....


  ......................AJ

[MountainWalk]

if you are hunting, then your carrying a rifle. why bother with the weight of a pistol? 
if your bow hunting, then your not supposed to carry.
i dont think many people are fast enough in their heads to see the threat, draw, aim and fire.. sides, if you miss and meat shoot em, youve done pissed em off worse. or worse yet, ya get so excited that your liable to shoot yourself in the foot. i myself have no problem with camping without a gun. i dont fear animals. i dont believe they are lurkin around every bend to get me. if that was the case, there would be a helluva lot less of us on this board. if your THAT concerned with animal threats while hiking or camping, get a little side by side 12 guage and stuff it with slugs.

[CP]

I was actually asking about it being used as a sidearm for protection from the 4 legged variety (bears, cougars, etc).  I wouldn't use a 180gr Hardcast for home protection.

Even so, I stick with my earlier recommendation.  The 180 gr round will have more energy at a longer distance but the lighter JHP or SJHP will have more up close where you need it. 

If you can handle the recoil consider a .44 mag.  The .40, .41 and .45 ACP are all good weapons but they don’t have any more stopping power than a .357 mag.  You might give this a read;

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

Applies to 2 legged stopping power but the principles are the same.  You want to stop the threat, not necessarily make a clean kill at a distance.
JMHO

[littletoes]

Mostly handguns are carried because of the two-legged variety of dangers, not the four legged variety. Kinda makes the .357 big enough, don't it?

Attacks from cougars and bears are rising a bit, I'd reccamend watching little ones, and smaller dogs the most. Easy meals.

[Coasthunterjay]

lik i said though, a 6 dollar ca ofmace will do the same if not more.......and you dont have to be accurate with a can of mace to be lethal, just point in the general direction and spray, then watch the stream and fix direction....most the time if you spray it in there direction and start walking back the smell itself should detir any animal........Cheep and light weight.....incase you really are wanting to carry something.

[Intruder]

.357 is fine for what you're talking about.  It's going to handle any 2 or 4 legged hooligans you're apt to run into in the woods in WA.

[boneaddict]

Just for intrest levels....everyone talks about their Glocks and so forth and the .45

Take two blacks of ice out and shoot it one with the .45 and the other with the .357 and see what happens.  Do the same with a bucnh of magazines tied together.

Granted, I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of a .45 but just doesn't hold a candle I don't think.
They are just about for making noise and for bullet capacity, again for troubles withthe two legged variety.  Bigger bullet doesn't always mean the stuff.  It also has alot to do with t he powder behind it.  A .357 is a great compromise with power and the ability to carry it around with you. 

One shot, one kill.  I survived a bear attack and or a charging bear.  You've got time for ONE shot, better make it count.  You could empty your 9mm into one and it wouldn't have the muscle to hardly break through the hide.   

[Intruder]

Another great thing about the .357 is that if you want to reload you can jack it up quite abit and also load it way down in the .38 for just pennies a shot.  In the .38 it becomes flat nice to shoot.... great for practice.  It could easily be argued that the .357 is the most versatile wheel gun cal out there. 

[littletoes]

CoasthunterJay=I'd just have to say, Mace don't work.

Wife takes walks with our husky, and twice she's been attacked by dogs. She's used the mace, and it didn't stop the dogs AT ALL.

I've got to say, if it won't stop a dog, I won't even try it on a bear or cougar. Not going to trust my nor hers, nor any of our kids lives on it. Give me the gun, I'll or She'll do it right the first time.

She carried the LARGEST can money can buy, got it from a LEO friend of ours, and it DID NOT WORK (said it twice to get the point across...). The biggest dog that came at her got 3/4 of the can right in its eyes, from about 2 feet max (wife argues that the dog was right up against her knees, and says it was a bunch closer than two feet). 

Now, when theres "dog trouble" in the neighborhood, I go along and carry my auto. Let them dogs come on over, got a surprise for 'em, and I won't even drag them off the street when I'm done. Let the owner do it.
I don't have much patience for mean dogs that can't stay on thier own property. I don't read "dog" so I don't know if they are comming in friendly or "angry" if they come running up. Pit's and Rott's already have a mark against them in my book, sorry, but in this area they have a bad rap.

BoneAddict-FBI tests show the 45 outperforming the 357, as did the 10mm. As a fact, the 10 was the only handgun that outperformed the .45 ACP in those tests.

[MountainWalk]

mace may not work.... but REAL BEAR SPARY will.. human mace is ineffective..tellyour wife to try BEAR SPRAY.....

[boneaddict]

outperformed as in firepower ( multiple shots on kill, speed etc.) or ballistically blow the hell out of a stump outperform.  I'm honestly not a handgun expert or even amateur.

[MountainWalk]

bone is right with the caliber. id take a 45 1911 anyday given the choice for self defence against two legged foes. in my mind, i see the 45 acp as a handgun version of a 4570. modest speed and mass and weight. i just dont like hammer drop safeties and double actions.
i prefer revolvers . i had a 41 hawk. loved it but it went down the river.

[Idabooner]

Just for intrest levels....everyone talks about their Glocks and so forth and the .45

Take two blacks of ice out and shoot it one with the .45 and the other with the .357 and see what happens.  Do the same with a bucnh of magazines tied together.

I think you are referring to the home tests I done, I was using hand loads and a strong framed .357 wheel gun against a .45 auto.  The .357 was loaded way hotter than factory ammo. Factory stuff has to be loaded down to be safe in any old or inferior gun the public might have. In the auto you can't load up much or it will not work the action right.  Remember the 9mm auto I loaded a little to hot and blew the grips off in my hand?  And yes the .357 penetrated a couple inches farther into a stack of catalogs, wet or dry, sideways or edge ways, into rotten stumps and solid stumps, the same results with blocks of ice plain and frozen gallon jugs. I thought the 9mm is way over rated, it didn't hold a candle to my do it yourself testing.  Just my experience over a few years I played with it.  If I had those 3 guns to choose from for protection in the woods I would take the .357 with my loads, no question.  My .357 got stolen so now I would take my .41 mag. with my loads which out preformed the other three.

[jdb]

back in the early 90,s i thought i wanted to be a pistolero and did a ton of research into this very subject and at that time a fellow named evan marshall compiled a huge amount of data gathered from actual shootings and the overall consensus was that a .357 magnum with 125 grain hollow point was the best defensive round by conciderable margin.

[jdb]

all that being said I usually carry a ruger singlesix .22 magnum!

[boneaddict]

Exactly what I was referring to Idabooner.  I saw alot of hard evidence with my own eyes.   I was really impressed.  I do love the .41 as well.

[littletoes]

Dangnabbit, you guys are gonna make me go dig up that file!    

Remember when that shootout happened in LA (I think), and those FBI guys got gunned down by the bank robbers? That made 'em re-eval-u-ate what they were to carry. After all the tests were done the Feds switched to the 10mm, but soon learned that not "all" could handle the recoil, hence the invention of the 40 Smith.....

I think it all started around '85-'86, the 10 is very comparable to the .41, but in an auto.
The same tests used +P loads in the 357 too, but any handloader can load up lots hotter loads in a hand cannon 'dere's LOTS of room in dem cases! (don't think its wise always though).

[Intruder]

Back to the original question.... is the .357 enough?  The short answer is YES.

[mossback91]

357 is enough unless your in the same woods as me but in that case you will always be undergunned!

[Dakota Dogman]

'bout 6 years ago 3 kids came onto a sow griz. while fishing outside of anchoridge... the kid with the mosberg got scared & went swimming.  Two with 9mm's put her down.

Several years back GFP put down a transport bear with a S&W 19 .357.

Yep, .357 can do it, however the .41 can do it a little better & .44 / .45 are also just a little bit more.  Answer near as I can tell is to buy several, then enjoy different ones on differnt days...

God Bless,

[257 Wby Mag]

jdb, you are exactly right, at least from my research. A gentlemen named Massad Ayoob did a study throughout the 90's, a large percentage of his reseached involved siiting in on autopsies, studying wound chaneles, etc. He research findings were, a 357 magnum firing a 125 jacketed hollow point 1400-1450 fps, is "the best one shot man stopper period". Second was a 135 grain hollowpoint out of a 40 S&W, wound channel and penetration closly resmbled that of a 357 magnum. His studies include 41,44, 45, 9mm, etc. The 357 Sig closly resembles the 357 magnum, within 50fps, with 13 rounds instead of 6. If I can't kill a longtail or bear with 13 shots outta my sig, then, I shoulda practiced a little more. Grizz or Brown bear country, I'd opt for a Ruger Alaskan in 480 or the Casull....

[boneaddict]

I think the biggest deal littletoes, and again, I know very little about handguns is that take a look at the case in the .45 auto versus the .357.   Yes its a bigger bullet, but the case seems its a bout half the size, then you have th elimitations of the auto eject and as Idabooner pointed out, can the gun handle it.  Plus...anytime you go to auto, you lose energy.   Honestly, I wouldn't want to be shot with any of them.....including JDB's 22 mag.  Which is what I carry alot too.  The other gun I carry, which I kind of had the idea stuck in my head after watching the deathwish movies with Charles Bronson, is my 30-30 contender.  I always figured if you can put a rifle round into a pistol, then you're talking.  Its a little big to put in your pocket though.   I've killed a couple bear, elk, deer, cougar, and probably a few other things with it.  Most importantly, it saved my life when I got attacked by that bear.  I need to get that story on here I can tell.

[littletoes]

No argument here! 

The problem with handgun case's, they have ample room to at least double the load. Can't do this with rifle calibers, a double load spills powder all around.

Basicaly what I'm saying, size doesn't matter with handgun cases, other than the fact that you CAN get more powder in them.
For example, magnum cases are Longer. They do this so in fact you won't put a magnum case in an older hangun, and kill yourself when you touch it off, its not that the magnum load won't fit in the original case.

Personly, I'm a fan of the .357 also.
What I would suggest or propose- "What Laod?" 
If we are all in agreement that the 125 grain load is a very good load for "people", well, bears arn't people. Their skelital structure is much much heavier, as is their muscle.
I would propose that 125's are not good enough for bears, cougars yes perhaps but maybe someting a bit heavier would be in order?
Ideas???

[257 Wby Mag]

Looks like  winchester loads a 180 partition gold, federal loads a 180 cast core. Those 2 might come in handy for bear. I'll just keep using my 125 gold dots. Lets hear the attack story Doug, sounds like a goodun.

[boneaddict]

I did  not know that about the magnum cartridge.  180 is a whoppin hunk of lead thats for sure.  Believe it or not, those cougars are pretty hard to bring down as well.  I don't think they are nearly as hard to deter, but they diehard thats for sure. 

[257 Wby Mag]

Yes they are, the longtail on my wall, had 12 holes in it. 6mm, 9mm, and 41 magnum. Another I shot, at 27 yards, with a full choked 870, with 3'' mag #2 lead shot, hit in the shoulder, was never recovered. Like you said, I think they are a little easier to deter than a bear..

[Idabooner]

Just dug out some old records of my .357 loads. I was shooting 158 gr. speer JSP and hornady 158 gr. JHP, ahead of 14.3 gr. winchester ball 630. Didn't find my chrony records. PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS LOAD, the hornady manual lists 11.7 gr powder as a max. in this combination.

[boneaddict]

Yep, I hit one three times with my Browning gold with 3 1/2 Tungsten Iron goose loads.  First one was at about 20 feet in the ches. Next one was at about 15 yards or 45 feet in the boiler room, and th elast was about 40 yards in the ass.  I'm certain he died, but I didn't recover him.  I don't know if any of you have seen what a shotgun does at 20 feet, but it ain't usually pretty.  I had another that I took on the run with that contender, and didn't recover her either after she ran into some rocks that there was no way that I could follow in the snow.  I had one through the heart which died like it should with a 30-30.
My brother got attacked while hunting and shot it in mid air as it was coming down on him.  He hit it square in the chest.  He then put too more .270 rounds into it before it expired, point blank.  The first shot killed him.  NONE of the .270 exited, and one was a neck shot.  Again, all three were handloads at point blanck range. There muscle when tight apparantly is like stone. Idabooner has his story on here somewhere about his cat with his 22 magnum, back when it was legal.  Little undergunned probably for a cat, but it would sure deter them probably. His bullet would enter, then follow the path of least resistance under the skin, to the other side.  I don't remember if it exitied or not.  It wouldn't pierce that stone muscle again.

[actionshooter]

Any of the calibers listed are "good enough" .357, .40, .45, .44, 10mm (which is nothing more than a longer .40).
 The key is shot placement even a griz can be killed with a 9mm if you hit it in the right place, not recomending a 9mm be carried in defense of bears!
 What it all comes down to is, fire under stress, most people can't hit a barn when the adrenilin is flowing. All the talk about which caliber doesn't mean much when when you can't hit what your shooting at  
 With that I carry a ruger .357 when hiking. I'm not nearly as worried about the 4 leggers as the methed up 2 leggers.
Steve

[boneaddict]

What it all comes down to is, fire under stress, most people can't hit a barn when the adrenilin is flowing.

exactly.

Bear attack story to follow.

[Bearhunter]

I own a 10mm glock with 15 round clips.  I love the gun it is super accurate and fairly light until you put a full 15 rounds into the clip.  I feel safe when I carry it in the woods for self defense, and thats what matters to me.  Having confidence in your weapon and having the dicipline to shoot it accurately during a high adrenaline situation is what really matters when the time arrises.

[mossback91]

 The key is shot placement even a griz can be killed with a 9mm if you hit it in the right place, not recomending a 9mm be carried in defense of bears!
 What it all comes down to is, fire under stress, most people can't hit a barn when the adrenilin is flowing. All the talk about which caliber doesn't mean much when when you can't hit what your shooting at  

Exactly Its he who has the balls to stand up straight and aim!! flingin lead dont do crap. From what I have seen back in the old western days besides the ones who shot ppl in the back it was the one balsy enough to take he time to take a good shot who was the one who usually lived when the lead was flyin.

[thinkingman]

This topic has strayed a bit.
IN re the original question, 357 is a ton of power FOR A HANDGUN.
I carry one for backwoods with the same 180gr hardcast lead because of the previously mentioned, bears and other wild animals aren't built like milk jugs or ballistic gellatin.
I don't care what Masad Ayoob thinks when discussing backwoods carry.
And yes, you CAN kill a bear with a 22 or 9mm but he will have taken more than a pound of flesh out of the shooter by the time the bear expires.
Not of the handguns mentioned in this thread have more energy than a 30-30...not known for a quick kill on a serious predator.
My job is to discourage harm to me or my family....and that is the reason for my sidearm.
I just bought a titanium 45ACP revolver for backwoods and am now researching the best defense round it will shoot.
Maybe 45super?

[boneaddict]

Here are some quick stats from teh computer....
The .45 ACP
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type   Velocity   Energy
230 gr (15 g) Hydra-Shok JHP   900 ft/s (270 m/s)
414 ft•lbf (561 J)

185 gr (12.0 g) JHP
950 ft/s (290 m/s)
371 ft•lbf (503 J)

230 gr (15 g) JHP
850 ft/s (260 m/s)
369 ft•lbf (500 J)

165 gr (10.7 g) JHP
1,060 ft/s (320 m/s)
412 ft•lbf (559 J)

Test barrel length: 5 in



NOW  The .357 from the same source

Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type   Velocity   Energy
130 gr (8.4 g) JHP
1,410 ft/s (430 m/s)
574 ft•lbf (778 J)

158 gr (10.2 g) JSP   1,240 ft/s (380 m/s)
539 ft•lbf (731 J)

180 gr (12 g) Lead
1,060 ft/s (320 m/s)
449 ft•lbf (609 J

[CP]

That illustrates the point I tried to make early.  The lighter self-defense round has more muzzle energy, about 12% to 30% more.  At 100 yards the heavier bullet retains more energy but self defense rarely occurs at 100 yards.  Also the castcore round doesn’t expand as much as a JHP but does offers greater penetration.  The JHP is actually designed to avoid over-penetration.  No doubt anything shot with a 180 gr CastCore will die, after it bleeds out.  But it’s what happens while it’s bleeding out that makes or ruins your day.  If under penetration is a worry, alternate between JHP & CastCore every other cylinder. 

Personally, I would want the lighter JHP as at least the first round, but I avoid bears.  The only ones I have ever encountered have been either running away or were unaware of my presence.  I have a great deal of respect for the .357 but I rarely carry one.  I carried one when I lived in Northern MN, there were a lot of bears there but it was the moose that you had to worry about.   

From the Federal Web site:

Energy in Foot Pounds
   Muzzle   25   50   75   100            
PD357HS2H   574   511   457   411   373            
P357J   510   477   448   424   402            

[thinkingman]

If someone had a bearskin (thick, heavy fur and skin) and put a ham under it and shot it with 125gr 357 screamer and then a 180gr hardcast, which do you think would do more damage?
My bet goes to the hardcast....and I'm really betting that as it is what I carry in 357 backwoods.

[MikeWalking]

I carried that same combo, 6in barrel, for a bit. Never did get good groups with it though even with a bench rest.  Went to a Smitty 629 Classic, 300gr Cast Core rnds.  What that did to "attack rocks" was awesome.

[257 Wby Mag]

While I realize you don't care thinkingman, I think the test speaks volumes. Is a round that doesn't work well on humans supposed to work better on critters? A round that works best on humans not as well on critters?? While it does happen, the least of my worries is a bear or longtail, and more so humans. I'm sure a guys chances are a little better getting attacked by a human than a bear or longtail.

As far as the hollowpoint, cast bullet goes, my vote goes to a well constructed hollowpoint. Never been impressed by cast bullet performance, the bucks I've seen looked like you poked a hole through em, with minimal damage. good hollowpoints looked like raspberry gelitan when the chest cavity was opened.