Undergunned??????

[littletoes]

No argument here! 

The problem with handgun case's, they have ample room to at least double the load. Can't do this with rifle calibers, a double load spills powder all around.

Basicaly what I'm saying, size doesn't matter with handgun cases, other than the fact that you CAN get more powder in them.
For example, magnum cases are Longer. They do this so in fact you won't put a magnum case in an older hangun, and kill yourself when you touch it off, its not that the magnum load won't fit in the original case.

Personly, I'm a fan of the .357 also.
What I would suggest or propose- "What Laod?" 
If we are all in agreement that the 125 grain load is a very good load for "people", well, bears arn't people. Their skelital structure is much much heavier, as is their muscle.
I would propose that 125's are not good enough for bears, cougars yes perhaps but maybe someting a bit heavier would be in order?
Ideas???

[257 Wby Mag]

Looks like  winchester loads a 180 partition gold, federal loads a 180 cast core. Those 2 might come in handy for bear. I'll just keep using my 125 gold dots. Lets hear the attack story Doug, sounds like a goodun.

[boneaddict]

I did  not know that about the magnum cartridge.  180 is a whoppin hunk of lead thats for sure.  Believe it or not, those cougars are pretty hard to bring down as well.  I don't think they are nearly as hard to deter, but they diehard thats for sure. 

[257 Wby Mag]

Yes they are, the longtail on my wall, had 12 holes in it. 6mm, 9mm, and 41 magnum. Another I shot, at 27 yards, with a full choked 870, with 3'' mag #2 lead shot, hit in the shoulder, was never recovered. Like you said, I think they are a little easier to deter than a bear..

[Idabooner]

Just dug out some old records of my .357 loads. I was shooting 158 gr. speer JSP and hornady 158 gr. JHP, ahead of 14.3 gr. winchester ball 630. Didn't find my chrony records. PLEASE DON'T TRY THIS LOAD, the hornady manual lists 11.7 gr powder as a max. in this combination.

[boneaddict]

Yep, I hit one three times with my Browning gold with 3 1/2 Tungsten Iron goose loads.  First one was at about 20 feet in the ches. Next one was at about 15 yards or 45 feet in the boiler room, and th elast was about 40 yards in the ass.  I'm certain he died, but I didn't recover him.  I don't know if any of you have seen what a shotgun does at 20 feet, but it ain't usually pretty.  I had another that I took on the run with that contender, and didn't recover her either after she ran into some rocks that there was no way that I could follow in the snow.  I had one through the heart which died like it should with a 30-30.
My brother got attacked while hunting and shot it in mid air as it was coming down on him.  He hit it square in the chest.  He then put too more .270 rounds into it before it expired, point blank.  The first shot killed him.  NONE of the .270 exited, and one was a neck shot.  Again, all three were handloads at point blanck range. There muscle when tight apparantly is like stone. Idabooner has his story on here somewhere about his cat with his 22 magnum, back when it was legal.  Little undergunned probably for a cat, but it would sure deter them probably. His bullet would enter, then follow the path of least resistance under the skin, to the other side.  I don't remember if it exitied or not.  It wouldn't pierce that stone muscle again.

[actionshooter]

Any of the calibers listed are "good enough" .357, .40, .45, .44, 10mm (which is nothing more than a longer .40).
 The key is shot placement even a griz can be killed with a 9mm if you hit it in the right place, not recomending a 9mm be carried in defense of bears!
 What it all comes down to is, fire under stress, most people can't hit a barn when the adrenilin is flowing. All the talk about which caliber doesn't mean much when when you can't hit what your shooting at  
 With that I carry a ruger .357 when hiking. I'm not nearly as worried about the 4 leggers as the methed up 2 leggers.
Steve

[boneaddict]

What it all comes down to is, fire under stress, most people can't hit a barn when the adrenilin is flowing.

exactly.

Bear attack story to follow.

[Bearhunter]

I own a 10mm glock with 15 round clips.  I love the gun it is super accurate and fairly light until you put a full 15 rounds into the clip.  I feel safe when I carry it in the woods for self defense, and thats what matters to me.  Having confidence in your weapon and having the dicipline to shoot it accurately during a high adrenaline situation is what really matters when the time arrises.

[mossback91]

 The key is shot placement even a griz can be killed with a 9mm if you hit it in the right place, not recomending a 9mm be carried in defense of bears!
 What it all comes down to is, fire under stress, most people can't hit a barn when the adrenilin is flowing. All the talk about which caliber doesn't mean much when when you can't hit what your shooting at  

Exactly Its he who has the balls to stand up straight and aim!! flingin lead dont do crap. From what I have seen back in the old western days besides the ones who shot ppl in the back it was the one balsy enough to take he time to take a good shot who was the one who usually lived when the lead was flyin.

[thinkingman]

This topic has strayed a bit.
IN re the original question, 357 is a ton of power FOR A HANDGUN.
I carry one for backwoods with the same 180gr hardcast lead because of the previously mentioned, bears and other wild animals aren't built like milk jugs or ballistic gellatin.
I don't care what Masad Ayoob thinks when discussing backwoods carry.
And yes, you CAN kill a bear with a 22 or 9mm but he will have taken more than a pound of flesh out of the shooter by the time the bear expires.
Not of the handguns mentioned in this thread have more energy than a 30-30...not known for a quick kill on a serious predator.
My job is to discourage harm to me or my family....and that is the reason for my sidearm.
I just bought a titanium 45ACP revolver for backwoods and am now researching the best defense round it will shoot.
Maybe 45super?

[boneaddict]

Here are some quick stats from teh computer....
The .45 ACP
Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type   Velocity   Energy
230 gr (15 g) Hydra-Shok JHP   900 ft/s (270 m/s)
414 ft•lbf (561 J)

185 gr (12.0 g) JHP
950 ft/s (290 m/s)
371 ft•lbf (503 J)

230 gr (15 g) JHP
850 ft/s (260 m/s)
369 ft•lbf (500 J)

165 gr (10.7 g) JHP
1,060 ft/s (320 m/s)
412 ft•lbf (559 J)

Test barrel length: 5 in



NOW  The .357 from the same source

Ballistic performance
Bullet weight/type   Velocity   Energy
130 gr (8.4 g) JHP
1,410 ft/s (430 m/s)
574 ft•lbf (778 J)

158 gr (10.2 g) JSP   1,240 ft/s (380 m/s)
539 ft•lbf (731 J)

180 gr (12 g) Lead
1,060 ft/s (320 m/s)
449 ft•lbf (609 J

[CP]

That illustrates the point I tried to make early.  The lighter self-defense round has more muzzle energy, about 12% to 30% more.  At 100 yards the heavier bullet retains more energy but self defense rarely occurs at 100 yards.  Also the castcore round doesn’t expand as much as a JHP but does offers greater penetration.  The JHP is actually designed to avoid over-penetration.  No doubt anything shot with a 180 gr CastCore will die, after it bleeds out.  But it’s what happens while it’s bleeding out that makes or ruins your day.  If under penetration is a worry, alternate between JHP & CastCore every other cylinder. 

Personally, I would want the lighter JHP as at least the first round, but I avoid bears.  The only ones I have ever encountered have been either running away or were unaware of my presence.  I have a great deal of respect for the .357 but I rarely carry one.  I carried one when I lived in Northern MN, there were a lot of bears there but it was the moose that you had to worry about.   

From the Federal Web site:

Energy in Foot Pounds
   Muzzle   25   50   75   100            
PD357HS2H   574   511   457   411   373            
P357J   510   477   448   424   402            

[thinkingman]

If someone had a bearskin (thick, heavy fur and skin) and put a ham under it and shot it with 125gr 357 screamer and then a 180gr hardcast, which do you think would do more damage?
My bet goes to the hardcast....and I'm really betting that as it is what I carry in 357 backwoods.

[MikeWalking]

I carried that same combo, 6in barrel, for a bit. Never did get good groups with it though even with a bench rest.  Went to a Smitty 629 Classic, 300gr Cast Core rnds.  What that did to "attack rocks" was awesome.