Tradition only unit

[gjbruny]

Here a good fix, traditional permit holders can only hunt with traditional gear, whatever the restrictions are decided upon.  And they can hunt during modern, muzzy and bow season, however they must follow those seasons special rules, i.e. blaze orange.  They can still only take one animal but can hunt all three seasons.  The small number that would participate will not increase the pressure in an already crowded modern season and they won't bother the muzzy guys.  Plus to make everyone happy, OPEN all the GMUs and stop cramming us all in smaller and smaller areas.

i still don't think it is a good idea...... but dang...... i almost could live with that one ( ) even though i think it would fly like a lead balloon with the other hunters..... and then more and more guys would be converting to stickbows that have no business hunting with them. while i think a proficiency test should be put into effect for all archers (like in May or sometime well before two weeks out from the season LOL), something like this would demand a shooting test to deter guys that can't hit the broadside of a barn with a stickbow from wounding animals.

[JBar]

I guess I am missing something and maybe someone can fill me in on Why!!! Why?  Should there be a separate permit available or unit?? Why do the traditional guys feel there should be one? Is it because you feel you need to get closer to the game? Is it because they deserve it or feel unsafe with modern archers in the area? Why? So far I have not seen a valid reason or even an explanation of why it is felt needed. I'm not against the idea if there is a valid reason for it, I know validity will be different to everyone but so far.... But give us something to ponder over.

It is just giving a user group an additional opportunity.  I don't really see why you are trying to read more into it than that.  That's it. 

Nobody is trying to be "elitist".  Nobody is trying to get you to do something different.  It is harder to take an animal with traditional equipment.  Can you deny that fact?  So if it is a tougher pursuit, why shouldn't we ask for a few extra days to take our targeted animal?  Why shouldn't we be allowed to ask for a seperate category for drawings? 

 If you really feel that strongly Jbar, why not lobby for muzzleloader to be rolled into modern firearm.  Why not really simplify things?  You haven't provided one single arguement as to why!! why you would be against it?

TL apparently you did not read my post, I said nothing about anyone wanting to be an elitist, and I said I was not against it if there was a valid reason for it. Yes it is harder for the Trad guys but how does a Trad unit help in getting closer? More days afield then others how does that help you get closer? Be honest, how many opportunities or missed opportunities did you have last season to take an animal? I'll bet you had at least 3 close calls or you harvested one. 45 days isn't enough?
I don't think that any unit should be closed to one user group and not the others.

[Skyvalhunter]

I second that!!

[Machias]

Why MAchias? whats wrong with the 45 days we get already? u cant say too many hunters.

This is the only state I've ever hunted in where guys are always trying to LIMIT their time in the woods instead of trying to get more days in the woods.     I understand we are NOT other states, but why not try and spend more time in the field.  There are less and less of us each year (in fact in 2011 there will be one less, since I'm not hunting big game in WA).  Look at alot of the other states, they have archery seasons that are MONTHS long, PLUS they are not choose your weapon states, so they can hunt more than one season.  And pretty please don't throw out the we are the smallest western state with the largest population saying.  Those figures may be true, but do not reflect the fact that our game department continues to cram fewer hunters into smaller areas therefore perpetuating the illusion of overcrowding.  No 45 days is NOT enough time, IMNSHO.     Actually that equates to about 15 to 16 days hunting a year since most guys cannot go every day of the season.  Nope call me greedy it's not enough time in the woods.  Plus other states NEVER have these conversations at all, only in a Choose your weapon state do you have user groups fighting with each other over time in the woods.  That single thing has divided us all more than any other.   

[bobcat]

Machias,

So you don't think we harvest enough deer? Is that it? I don't understand why we'd want more liberal seasons unless we wanted to increase the number of animals harvested.   

By the way, we are all free to spend as much time in the woods as we like. There doesn't have to be a hunting season open. It's called scouting.

[Snapshot]

..... and then more and more guys would be converting to stickbows that have no business hunting with them.

That is why it would need to be a binding commitment to use only traditional gear for, say, a ten year period, or better yet, for one's natural lifetime.

[Machias]

Machias,

So you don't think we harvest enough deer? Is that it? I don't understand why we'd want more liberal seasons unless we wanted to increase the number of animals harvested.   

By the way, we are all free to spend as much time in the woods as we like. There doesn't have to be a hunting season open. It's called scouting.

  Honestly, you guys accept whatever you want, I'm taking my ball and playing in another state.  It really isn't worth fighting over.....err disagreeing over.....err wrestling over....whatever you want to call it.

[bobcat]

If I lived where you do I'd consider quitting Washington too. You're only what, a half hour from Idaho? And two or three hours from Montana. Yeah, I'm not sure I'd have time to hunt Washington.

[NoBark]

Hey Machias,    I agree with your statement  "Those figures may be true, but do not reflect the fact that our game department continues to cram fewer hunters into smaller areas therefore perpetuating the illusion of overcrowding."

Any chance someone on here has an old hunting regs from just after the choose-your-weapon days?? It would be interesting to see how many units were open for each user group then and now. And, compared to before the cyw years.

[STIKNSTRINGBOW]

I think it is pretty funny, this subject seem to stir as much controversy as the Lumenok one.
Although, I am against a separate season, I am a Trad hunter, and would like to apply for a permit, I don't really care one way or the other.
I already have plenty of other permits to apply for.
I just feel that if offered, a "Traditional" permit would reduce some of the applications for others, thereby making the draw odds better for those that are not "traditional"
I hunt alongside of non-traditional hunters and feel that I need no special consideration, overcrowding is not an issue with me, quite the opposite, my friends that still hunt the Manastash, are complaining that with the fewer hunters in the area, that you have to work harder to find Elk, they are not running from drainage to drainage anymore, they actually stay in one until somebody bumps them.
And with me no longer hunting there, they have to rely on different camps.  
In the area I now hunt, I see nobody else off of the maintained roads, and after a mile or two of walking down those noisy,gravel covered roads, they usually turn around and walk back to their vehicles and go somewhere else.
No matter what type of weapon they are using, it will not affect how I hunt,
 I just feel (and I have been accused of being an "Elitist") that a person who chooses to use Traditional equipment, makes that decision, not because of any special permits, seasons or because it is easier, but because he wants to use that weapon, and is willing to spend the extra time and effort using it requires.
Seasons are based upon the majority of users, and with archery, that means compound users, Archery permits are offered to allow increased opportunity, and therefore increased harvest, and taken into consideration when seasons are set.
With unlimited OTC tags, permits are the only effective means of ATTEMPTING to regulate harvest, issue more permits=increased harvest, issue less permits=lower harvest.
When they figure out how many permits to issue, they count on the average success rate of the user group, the average number of days to harvest, and allocated percentage for user group. That is why different numbers of permits are issued to different user groups.
When you figure the Statewide general season average for Archery is around 20-25% for deer, and 10% for Elk, while special permits run only slightly better for deer +/- 5%, but closer to +/-15% for Elk, yet almost DOUBLE for modern firearm, and a lesser, but close to 15-35% for Muzzleloaders are the permits really a direct comparison ?
When you take into consideration that an Archery Hunter, no matter what he is using, still has a lower success rate, general and permit, and further consider a smaller user group (Traditional), then the only real reason NOT to offer a special permit, would be to prevent further division amongst the user group (Archery), as it would have no real impact on anybody that did not apply.

[JBar]

Why MAchias? whats wrong with the 45 days we get already? u cant say too many hunters.

This is the only state I've ever hunted in where guys are always trying to LIMIT their time in the woods instead of trying to get more days in the woods.     I understand we are NOT other states, but why not try and spend more time in the field.    Nope call me greedy it's not enough time in the woods.  Plus other states NEVER have these conversations at all, only in a Choose your weapon state do you have user groups fighting with each other over time in the woods.  That single thing has divided us all more than any other.   

 I'm with Michias! You make a good honest point that we all want our time in the field and would welcome more if we could get it. Unfortunately we are a choose your weapon state so we end up fighting for whatever time we can steal from each other. This is why we should stick together as "archers" and fight to keep what we have left rather than divide us even further . We lost the last week of September deer to the rifle quality elk permit. If we divide into a Trad / compound more time could be lost.
 The original topic is for a Traditional unit, again I don't think any units should be open or closed to one user group and not another. All units that are open to hunting should be open all user groups. This would equal better hunter distribution.

 If you really want to continue the division thing why don't we have a women/youth archery season? On average these archers also have to (should) get closer based on lower poundage bows. Where does it end? 
 
 Snapshot the only problem I see with that idea would be the multi season tag holders

 

[NWWABOWHNTR]

I am not sure I like the idea of a GMU being trad only,  and as most of you know I am a "trad only" guy.  I hunt with my longbow (thanks Ernie!) only.  I like the idea of a special tag drawing for certain GMU's that would be for "trad" only.  However,  how would the WDFW do this?  Probably by taking away from tags for archery for those GMU's.  SO how do they decide just how many tags to give to the Trad only group?  THey have no trend data for how many "trad" hunters there are.  ALmost all of my questions can be answered by... 1. attend the WDFW meetings and voice your opinions.  2. Write the hunting VP's (or board members) of the WSAA/TBWWSB and see if you can get them behind your ideas.  AS you may have read in other threads there is an Archery Coalition between those 3 groups (no matter the division on lumenoks) and they are representing all of us bowhunters with the WDFW.  I know that this has been discussed in the past in the coalition, between the TBW and the WSAA,  can't tell you for sure if it was tabled or not,  except I know that if enough voices are heard they will listen.  For the WSAA you can go here for contact email info...  http://washingtonarchery.org/contact.html  (might even recognize a name or two  )  for the TBW go here http://www.tbwonline.org/Contacts/tbwcontacts3.htm for the WSB you can go here and select east/west or... http://www.wabowhunters.org/Page.aspx?nid=3 

[Snapshot]

Snapshot the only problem I see with that idea would be the multi season tag holders

As an traditional archery hunter I never have and never will buy a multi-season tag raffle ticket. No other method of hunting interests me and I don't think I'm alone in my thinking, although sometimes I wonder.   The whole point of a lifetime traditional license (or whatever it would be called) would be that the hunter foresakes all other methods of hunting all big game in the state in exchange for a broader range of time afield. To quote a now defunct archery organization; "An opportunity, not an advantage."

[rooselk]

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned that only 29 hunters applied for a tag in the Oregon trad only unit as a first choice. The implication is that is only small handful hunters so therefore having a trad only unit is pointless. But I think the opposite is true. I say that because I am actually surprised that 29 hunters would make that unit their first choice. What needs to be clear is that the number of tags for that unit are unlimited. In other words anyone who applies gets a tag. Because of this, most people applying for this unit would make it their second or third choice in order to still earn a preference point rather than use them (unlike in our state, in Oregon preference points are only used when one draws his/her first choice hunt preference). In light of the way the Oregon draw system works I find it actually remarkable that 29 hunters were willing to make that unit their first choice since any preference points would be burned and not earned.

[JimmyHoffa]

Snapshot the only problem I see with that idea would be the multi season tag holders

As an traditional archery hunter I never have and never will buy a multi-season tag raffle ticket. No other method of hunting interests me and I don't think I'm alone in my thinking, although sometimes I wonder.   The whole point of a lifetime traditional license (or whatever it would be called) would be that the hunter foresakes all other methods of hunting all big game in the state in exchange for a broader range of time afield. To quote a now defunct archery organization; "An opportunity, not an advantage."

Correct me if wrong, but if you are a traditional archery hunter with an archery only tag then you can only hunt the archery season.  If you were to get the multi-season you could hunt the additional days of the general season using the method of choice--in this case traditional archery.  The only season you would have to use something else would be for muzzleloader.  So you would have to determine the value of those additional days especially considering you would have to wear orange and deal with the other 80/67 percent of deer/elk hunters.