Round ball for elk

[Dirty Mike]

Anybody hunt elk with round ball i have a hawkin 54 and was thinking bout it

[carpsniperg2]

I have not. But with a good clean shot I am sure you would do fine. There has been many elk and critters killed with lead round balls.

[Dan-o]

I've hunted elk with M/L for almost 30 years now, but never with round ball.

I grew up hunting deer with round ball and the results were less than spectacular.

Are you familiar with how much more energy you can deliver to the target by shooting a conical bullet instead?    Do a quick internet search and look at the energy.   Be sure to look at down range energy, like even 50 and 100 yards down range,  because round balls are waaaaaaaaay inefficient (horrible ballistic coefficient).

My experience with deer, and seeing how little energy they pack compared to conicals has kept me from ever wanting to hunt elk with them.

That said, I don't disagree with the first reply.  I'm sure many elk have been killed by them over the years.   But I wouldn't feel comfortable hunting elk with a really small/light modern rifle cartridge either.   I just think they can be one tough critter.

2 cents,

Dan

[colockumelk]

Elk can't be killed with round balls. The only way you can kill an elk with a muzzle loader is if you are using a T/C Encore with a 209 primer, 150 grains of pyrodex pellets, and a 300 grain T/C Shockwave jacketed bullet. Oh and its impossible to hit an elk unless you have a Nikon BDC 3x9 Muzzy scope on top and only after you ranged him.

Anything less than the combo I described above can't kill an elk. Nope impossible.

On a serious note we owe it to the animals we hunt to put them down quick and hard. Co ovals do this far better than a round ball. But if you want to use a round ball go for it. Just be reasonable and shorten your Max range.

[bobcat]

I'm sure a round ball would work ok but you'd want to limit your range to about 50 yards. 

[Hangfire]

I believe I have taken 7 elk with roundballs. I used both .50 cal and .54 cal. I never lost a animal. I have shot them from about 5 yards to 90 yards. Five were shot in lungs, leave a very good 50 to 100 yard blood trail. The 90 yard bull was high on the shoulder, near the spine, dropped on spot.  The 5 yard in back of head. Four were shot with a .50 cal, .495 round ball and .90 gr fffg black powder. The other three were a .54 TC New Englander using a .530 patched roundball and 115 gr of ffg blackpowder.

I switched from my .50 Green River Leman rifle (36 in by 1 inch across flats barrel, very heavy but very accurate. I went to the New Englander because much lighter hunting rifle. We were going in 7-10 miles in a road closure unit and weight important. I didn't switch to improve performance although I think the .54 gives better penetration. If I was to be doing it again I would build a .58 or .62 roundball gun.

[O_mykiss]

It will work. Generally less effective range and less energy at impact than a conical, but put it in the lungs or heart and it will work just fine.

If it were me, I would be using a heavy lead conical, but your mileage may vary.

[lonedave]

I haven't used a .54 ball for elk, but last year I took this bull with my .62 T/C Hawken and a single patched round ball.  One shot from less than 50 yards and he was down in 14 long steps.  The numbers game would say round balls are terrible for game, but results like this and Hangfire's above would say otherwise.  As to the need to keep shots close, I'd say yes for any muzzleloader as that's kind of the name of the game, right.

[img][/img]

[carpsniperg2]

Thats a dandy spike bull lonedave. Heck of a big body on him.

[O_mykiss]

That does seem like a LARGE bodied spike.

lonedave has a good point, gotta be close anyway, so there is probably not much of a gap between the edge of roundball range (75 yards or so?) and the maximum muzzloader range (125 for me).

[C-Money]

Cool pic Lonedave! Nice bull! I have see quite a few deer killed with roundballs and they seem to be effective. With acceptable ranges, I'd use one on an elk.

[lokidog]

As stated keep the range down and why not.  I punched completely through a nice 4X4 blacktail in OR with a .54 Hawken and round ball at 80 yards clipping one shoulder blade.  Try not to hit any shoulder bone, at least on the way in. 

[undertoad]

Elk were rendered extinct east of the Mississippi and drastically reduced in number west of the Miss. by round balls. They can do fine. I've shot through a broadside elk at over 100 yards with one.

That said, they work best if your gun was designed for them. That means slow-twist rifling. The typical twist rate for ball guns is 1 in 66-72 inches. Bullet guns're typical 1 in 20-48 inches.

On slow-twist guns, you can use big powder charges and still keep accuracy. For hunting in my .54, I use 120 grains of 2f black powder. It shoots great and bowls 'em over.

I chose muzzle-loading for the history aspect, and because I like to keep things simple. I use patched balls, natural lubes, black powder, traditional guns, and clean up with plain room-temp water. Life is so easy, and I do not feel any handicap compared to bullet muzzle-loaders, given iron sights for both.

[colockumelk]

Elk can't be killed with round balls. The only way you can kill an elk with a muzzle loader is if you are using a T/C Encore with a 209 primer, 150 grains of pyrodex pellets, and a 300 grain T/C Shockwave jacketed bullet. Oh and its impossible to hit an elk unless you have a Nikon BDC 3x9 Muzzy scope on top and only after you ranged him.

Anything less than the combo I described above can't kill an elk. Nope impossible.

On a serious note we owe it to the animals we hunt to put them down quick and hard. Co ovals do this far better than a round ball. But if you want to use a round ball go for it. Just be reasonable and shorten your Max range.

I hope people realized that this whole post of mine was 100% sarcasm. 

[SkookumHntr]

That was a nice spike!!

[wadu1]

I hunt with a .54 with bullets, one year I helped an old timer with a nice spike he had taken. When we rolled him over to start gutting it I saw one small hole and asked what was he shooting his reply was a .45 patched round ball (it was legal then). He took it on the run at 80 yards one shot one lung and lodged in the heart. For helping he gave me the heart and liver and someware in my junk I still have the ball.

[bearpaw]

I feel compelled to add my 

I have seen multiple animals wounded by roundballs. Here's a prime example of why the pioneers started using elongated projectiles.

When we could still run hounds in WA I had a bear hunter using round balls. My dogs bayed up about a 350 pound bear, we slipped in within 20 yards in heavy cover, dogs are running all around us, bear is putting charges on the dogs trying to grab them, he was too big and slow to get them, finally we had a clear shot at 20ish yards, boooooommmm, smoke clears bear is loooking at us seemingly unharmed, quick reload, pretty quick bbboooommmmm again, bear takes off running and goes a half mile or so, we catch up and slip in close again, bbooommmm smoke clears and bear is still unharmed, this crap goes on for about 6 or 8 shots until hunter is out of ammo. The bear was wounded pretty good by now but by no means dead, we had to wait for quite some time, finally I was able to slip in behind the bear, I made a quick slash with my knife at his throat and got out of the way. Finally after about another 30 minutes he bled to death.

Upon dressing and skinning the bear we found that the roundies would hit, flatten out some on impact, and not get enough penetration to kill a big animal like that.

One year we were restricted to round balls during a muzzleloader mule deer season in Idaho. We had killed lots of bucks with MZ bullets and now all we could use were round balls. The balls never killed a single deer, we lost 7 bucks, we did get 1 buck but we had to run up and hold it down while we cut its throat. One hunter quit hunting after 4 wounded bucks, it was the most disgusting mess I ever saw.

RB's should be illegal for big game due to lack of effectiveness. Just my opinion....

[HEADSHOT]

I haven't used a .54 ball for elk, but last year I took this bull with my .62 T/C Hawken and a single patched round ball.  One shot from less than 50 yards and he was down in 14 long steps.  The numbers game would say round balls are terrible for game, but results like this and Hangfire's above would say otherwise.  As to the need to keep shots close, I'd say yes for any muzzleloader as that's kind of the name of the game, right.

[img][/img]

I second this! I know were you shot that critter! it was out by djkasldfbeeqlrfuqerl house! I knew it! And you did it with round ball? How many mules have you killed on the beast side of the state?

[MagKarl]

The guys I know who hunt with round balls by choice are generally pretty serious and effective.  Ever been to a black powder round ball match?  I have no problem with the idea of killing elk provided the shooter knows himself and his gear.  It's no different than hunting with any other weapon, take responsible shots within your effective range and you'll be packing meat. 

[Hangfire]

I have never used a roundball on a bear and I probably wouldn't with hounds as I would want to put it down with out getting a hound injured. Like wise I wouldn't used archery under the same circumstances. That said, I can't believe a bear hit through the lungs with a roundball, wouldn't go down within 100 yards. The only elk that I ever witnest not being put down was with bullets. In the end the 4 point bull was jumped and put down with a 54 cal roundball. I can't imagine loosing 7 mule deer by shooters that had any idea what they were doing. I knew a fellow when I shot in the Yakima muzzle loader club in the 70's. He used a 58 cal Zuave. He had to back off on his loads as he was shooting clear through a mature cow elk at 50 yards hit behind the shoulders.
It is more, know where to shoot a animal,  how to hit that spot, and know your range. It is like all guns and archery, to many people push there weapons to where thy are no longer effective, be it archery, muzzle loader or 300 magnum.

Why use roundballs, plan and simple accuracy. You can't put them down if you can't hit them correctly. Round ball guns normally are very accurate. A number of years ago a fellow I believe named Bill Faulk, won the hunting rifle match at the Spokane gun club. He was shooting a half stock 45 cal muzzle loader he had built, with round balls. The rules were, off hand, any rifle leagal for deer, any sights. His iron sighted muzzle loader won. When I was target shooting you better be able to shoot 2 inch or smaller groups at 100 yards if you wanted to place. That was off cross sticks and iron sights.

[KLRKeith]

Several mule deer I've killed with patched round balls never traveled more than 25 yards.  All were shot under 75yards.  I've seen caribou up in Alaska that were gimping along and had over four arrows stuck in him before he was killed with a rifle.  I've shot several bears up there that had .30 caliber bulllets in them.  My point being that all weapons wound animals when not placed in the kill zone.  My rifle shoots patched round balls very accurately and I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a elk or moose with a patched round ball.

[bearpaw]

Perhaps those bigger calibers get more penetration with round balls. Perhaps my comment was a bit harsh on making the roundballs illegal, that actually goes against my normal phylosophy of supporting each other, and yes any weapon can wound animals, but I have to tell you, I have had no good experiences with round balls, all have been negative. I know that good Bullets perform very well in MZ's and can see no reason to risk losing an animal with a round ball when a guy can shoot bullets.

A bayed up bear is hairy with any weapon, but that situation was not good, unfortunately I had forgotten my pistol in my truck or I would have handed it to the guy to put the bear out of it's misery. I have a great respect for the animals I hunt and just hate to see unnecessary suffering. I felt really bad for the bear waiting for it to slowly die after I had to cut it's throat.

I am a firm believer in hunting with all weapons types, but I feel we owe it to the wildife we kill, to kill them as quickly as possible and to use as effective equipment as possible whether it be bow, pistol, rifle, or muzzy.

[h20hunter]

I would be very interested if anyone has some after shots of ball ammo taken from a downed animal.

[bobcat]

I think round balls are a terrible choice. If you do use them, you should limit your distance to the same as what a bow hunter would. 50 yards would be a good max as I said before. For deer I could see shooting a little farther, up to 75 like KLRKeith did. Also with round balls the caliber makes a big difference. 54 caliber would be a good minimum for elk, IMO.

[Dan-o]

Balistic tables don't lie...... But I'm an old Elmer Keith fan.

[KLRKeith]

A few recovered bullets.  Left to right... Thats a brass tack on the horn mount right behind the bullets.

54 cal, 1,600fps--passed thru shoulder of mule deer exited and recovered in hair on exit side.  60 yards

.45cal fmj, 900 fps --point blank range--pancaked on skull of grizzly bear; cracked skull but no penetration.

.30 cal Nosler partition 180grains--2,400fps----120 yards--Grizzly bear behind front shoulder; stuck on off side hide

.30 Cal nosler partition 170 grain--1,900 fps 130 yards --Caribou double lung but no bone hit.  Found against skin exit side, no exit

.30 cal Nosler partition 170 grains, 1,900 fps-80 yards--Moose rib shot then stopped on spine

[MagKarl]

I find it hard to believe how many nay-sayers there are when you have several personal accounts of success listed right here in this very thread.  If you did a little research on the traditional side of muzzleloading you'd find that round balls are plenty deadly within the ranges that most folks can place shots accurately with primitive sights.  

I'll admit I've only shot a couple deer with round balls, but the 3 shots I've taken were all pass thoughs and quick kills.  No lost animals, no balls recovered.  54 cal, between ~30 and 70 yards.  

To say they are non-lethal or imply their use is unethical or unsportsmanlike is ignorant.  

[DeerThug]

Despite the pic of a great spike, and unless you are a crack shot  no way on the round ball.  I have seen too many elk hit good with way more that one round ball go way too far - some to never be seen again.

Unless you are 100% traditional - stick with good heavy lead.  You only get one shot at a time, why go small when bigger is better.

No on likes a crash when it comes to muzzle elk...

[Skillet]

I have a good .50 cal heavy boolit slinger, and am looking at a Lyman Great Plains slow twist .54 for roundball, with the intent to use on both deer and elk. 

My personal rules of the road for round balls, in no particular order -

#1 - .54 is my minimum round ball gun for elk.  Projectile weight is important on these animals to ensure penetration.
#2 - I basically hunt like I have a bow.  60 yards maximum, double lung is the rule.  No frontal shots, no shoulders.  Quarting away is ideal.  If I don't get the shot, I don't force it.  If tagging an elk was the only goal, I'd be carrying my .50 cal slinging heavy boolits out to 100 yards.
#3 - Burn a lot of powder this summer.  Practice, practice, practice.
#4 - Plan on blood trailing as per bowhunting.  Even with the RB pancaking, you're not putting the punch on them that 400 grains of lead conical can. 

If you do your job by practicing often, exercising self restraint as far as range and shot placement, then the round ball will do its job.  But if you expect a round ball to do a sabot's or a heavy conical's job, you will be disappointed and probably have wasted an elk, to boot.

[bobcat]

Great "rules" Skillet. My problem with round balls is that I assume most people won't have the self restraint that you have. Especially when all they know is they see guys on TV and read stories on the internet about 200+ yard shots with muzzleloaders.   

[Skillet]

Well, these are just my personal rules for my hunt.  Somebody else may say 100 yards, take out a shoulder, etc.  Seems like now matter what your own rules are, you just have to have it in your head that when crunch time comes, and that elk isn't coming any closer and/or you can't close the gap, you just have to be able to man up and acknowledge that no matter how good you are, you cannot turn a .54 cal patched round ball into a 338 RUM, and let it go.  That is really, really tough to do in this state; but as Bearpaw alluded to, you just have the obligation to do it if you want to limit yourself even more by using the PRB.
I know what you mean.  I've watched a number of those shows on ML hunting and the glory is all in the ultra-long shot.  I'm pretty sure it's because they have sponsors, and they need to sell whatever it is they're using to pay for the show.  Hard to sell a new super-duper-deluxe whatchamacallit by saying "now, even if you're gonna use this, you still gotta get close enough to hear him breathing".  And there is nowhere near enough money spent on new gadgets by the guys shooting PRBs from old Hawkens to get a show made that will tell it like it is.  To the best of my knowledge, anyway.

[Dirty Mike]

i never said anything about long distance round ball, if i was i would just use my big horn or my wolverine ive shot just about everything out of a muzzy except prb so i know my distance, but i was thinking about going more traditional so thats why round ball came to mind

[Skillet]

That's the same reason I'm going that route, too.  Not ready for flintlock yet, but I am good with a PRB and it's limitations.

If you do, I'd be really curious to compare notes iwth you.  I've done a little looking into the .54's out there, and would be curious to see what you come up with.  PM me if you get that far down the road with the PRB shooter.

[Hangfire]

Remember what Lewis and Clark, all the early fur traders and explores used, patched round ball. I don't think there was much use of bullets until about civil war days and Mr. Minnie invented the Minnie bullet. There were some cartridges but mostly low power. They have there limit but within that limit will do the job.

[busterbrown]

Killed many elk with a .54 thompson hawkins, 1/48 twist, .530/230 grains round ball, 120 gr pyrodex.

Keep shots on elk under 50 yards, deer 100 yards.

In the old days, mountainmen killed everything from rabbits to buffalo with this load.

Know the limits of the gun and load, practice shooting your gun, know the trajectory, where to shoot the critter and sight the guns to be shot in the 50-100 yard hunting ranges.

Read Sam Fadela and Tobey Bridges books and articles.

[Selkirk]

I think it's pretty agreed that a bullet is more effective than a ball.  So why would you choose to use the lesser projectile?  It's nice to be philosophical but after you loose an animal or two you will switch to the most effective load.  That said, not every bullet is the same.  For example,a T/C Maxi-hunter is a heavy bullet made of soft lead and is intended for deer sized game.  A T/C Maxi-ball is a harder bullet intended for elk, bear, etc.  Both bullets weigh about 430 grains in .54 caliber.  Be sure to use the right bullet, too.

[busterbrown]

In 17 years, 7 elk,11 deer, 2 antelope and 2 pigs killed, none lost.

As stated, get close and make a good shot. Muzzleloading is not about shooting far, it's about getting close.

If you want to turn a muzzleloader into a rifle by shoots sabots or bullets, then you problem should go back to rifle hunting.

Thats why many states have traditional muzzleloader hunts with restrictions on projectiles, ignition and no scoped sights. They want hunters to use their muzzleloaders as intended, instead of using their muzzleloaders as rifles so they can hunt in the muzzleloader hunts using rifle hunting tactics.

I think more animals are wounded and lost because too many hunter attempt to turn their muzzleloaders into long range shooter using sabots or bullets. This causes more bad shots being taken and lost animals.

Round balls kill just fine if you are a good hunter, get close and don't attempt to do more than you or your weapon are capable of handling.

[Bean Counter]

I feel compelled to add my 

I have seen multiple animals wounded by roundballs. Here's a prime example of why the pioneers started using elongated projectiles.

When we could still run hounds in WA I had a bear hunter using round balls. My dogs bayed up about a 350 pound bear, we slipped in within 20 yards in heavy cover, dogs are running all around us, bear is putting charges on the dogs trying to grab them, he was too big and slow to get them, finally we had a clear shot at 20ish yards, boooooommmm, smoke clears bear is loooking at us seemingly unharmed, quick reload, pretty quick bbboooommmmm again, bear takes off running and goes a half mile or so, we catch up and slip in close again, bbooommmm smoke clears and bear is still unharmed, this crap goes on for about 6 or 8 shots until hunter is out of ammo. The bear was wounded pretty good by now but by no means dead, we had to wait for quite some time, finally I was able to slip in behind the bear, I made a quick slash with my knife at his throat and got out of the way. Finally after about another 30 minutes he bled to death.

Upon dressing and skinning the bear we found that the roundies would hit, flatten out some on impact, and not get enough penetration to kill a big animal like that.

One year we were restricted to round balls during a muzzleloader mule deer season in Idaho. We had killed lots of bucks with MZ bullets and now all we could use were round balls. The balls never killed a single deer, we lost 7 bucks, we did get 1 buck but we had to run up and hold it down while we cut its throat. One hunter quit hunting after 4 wounded bucks, it was the most disgusting mess I ever saw.

RB's should be illegal for big game due to lack of effectiveness. Just my opinion....

Well I haven't made the plunge into MZ hunting yet though I've thought about it. BP sure has convinced me through is broad experience that ball ammo isn't preferable. For my tenture down here in Arizona, I do often  when I'm at the range and I see guys with scoped MZ guns shooting out to 150 yards or even 200. I think in general WA has better MZ laws.

BTW, BP, you really need to talk this story up a bit. I mean, it really (seriously) is sad about how the bear had to go, but if there's any story I've heard you tell that entitles you to a Pulp Fiction, B.M.F. wallet carrying status, its this... "So there we were, with a wounded bear--nine feet tall and 600 pounds of crazy... Claws tearing into trees like ice axes. When the lead ran dry I knew it was up to my trusty hand-sharpened shank and I. I low-crawled up to that bruiser of a bruin with my knife in my mouth, clothed in only my loin cloth of course, and wrestled it down for nearly an hour until I finally slit its throat and watched the life drain from his eyes. As I smoked my victory cigar I thought... 'just another day at the office'."

[busterbrown]

No disrespect.

But, think of this, how many animals are lost every year during rifle seasons?

Even large caliber rifles with large bullets made with the right materials may not guarantee a clean kill. Even if the shot is place in the right spot, with the right bullet, many animals still get away.

Anyway, what ever you elect to shoot, master your skills and enjoy the great outdoors and the hunting experience.