Daily Bag Limit/Possession Limit?

[Fishnclifff]

Gopher,
Can you cite state or federal law that says possession limits apply to your freezer.

[bigtex]

I'll just say this. If a WDFW Officer is checking your freezer your probably have a lot worse things to be worried about then a couple ducks over the posession limit. Just make sure you don't have over the posession limit while out in the field or back at camp.

[Gopher]

The bird phamplet says the possession limit is 14 and that's all it says.  Unlike the fishing pamphlet that goes one step further when it comes to fish.  Game fish......same thing, there is a possession limit that is two daily limits.  Doesn't say in the field or where, just the possession limit.  If you're at your house, you possess them.  Now, the place where it does make an exception......and that's spelled out....is with salmon where the regulations say you can possess up to 40 pounds "in frozen or processed form".  Seems to me that if they, the state, had wanted to make that exception for waterfowl, deer, elk or whatever else you hunt or fish for, they would have said it that way.  I agree that if the game warden comes to your house to look in your freezer, they're probably not after a few ducks over 14, but I suspect they could make you jump through some hoops if they wanted to.

[Fishnclifff]

Well the federal law in the pamphlet, that copmes from the federal migratory act, allows you to have 2 daily limits in your possession while in the field.'
The migratory act does not contain language as to how many at any time you can possess at your house.
I have hunted ducks for 15yrs and the fed rule has always been the norm for everyone I know.
Why is it different for you?

[Everett]

I guess I wasn't the only person that had a question about this.  My understanding now is that you can shoot 7 ducks a day, but you can only possess 14 at your camp or in your truck.  That makes sense, I don't foresee the game department coming and checking anyones freezer, unless they got a report you were poaching.  Thanks again, guys.

[Oldguy]

To make things interesting, look at page 23 in the bird regulations, under "Wanton waste of migratory birds."

In brief, it states that you must retain birds in your actual custody between the place taken and a list of places, one of which is your automobile. So does that mean that I can take the birds to the car and then throw them in the woods? That would sure take care of the possession problem. The Feds say yes, the State says it would be considered reckless waste.

You would think that the WDFW would put the definition of "Possession" as it applies to bird hunting, in the regulations. This has been an ongoing source of debate for years and it needs to be cleared up for the benefit of sportsman and those enforcing the law. It is rediculous to think that each officer is forced to make up his mind in regard to the interpretation of this and we are supposed to comply with a law that no-one seems to be clear on.

[Gopher]

Well the federal law in the pamphlet, that copmes from the federal migratory act, allows you to have 2 daily limits in your possession while in the field.'
The migratory act does not contain language as to how many at any time you can possess at your house.
I have hunted ducks for 15yrs and the fed rule has always been the norm for everyone I know.
Why is it different for you?

Well Fishnclifff, I'm not going to get in a pissin' match with you here.  I'm not a 15 year old kid who's just starting out, I've been hunting and fishing in Washington for over 50 years and that's the way I read the regulations.  I try my darndest to read the rules and the law and if there's something that I don't understand I start doing some homework.  This afternoon while I was driving around on the Hancock tree farm near North Bend, I was stopped by Sgt. Chandler, one of the wardens who works that area.  I told him about the discussion here and asked him what the rule was.  He got out the regulation pamphlet and we looked at it.  Without even reading it, he immediately told me that the possession limit was 14 ducks.  He didn't have the federal law there but said he'd check.  As I said above, I called the USFWS office in Redmond on Friday and talked to the head agent there, Phil, can't remember his last name, and he gave me the information that I forwarded on.....14 ducks in your possession no matter where you are.  If you are reading the state law any other way, I'm sorry but I can't see it other than the way it's written.  Some here agree with me, some don't.  I'm done with this boxing match with you though.......

[Everett]

Gopher,

If you talked to the WDFW and that Sgt. I'm going to go with what you decided to do.  I just like to do things by the book, it saves a lot of trouble later on.

[Gopher]

Everett
Things got a little off track from your original smiple question of how many ducks can I shoot but it got some reaction and some head scratching going on so I guess that's not such a bad thing.......  The whole idea is to have fun out there and enjoy yourself and not have to be always looking over your shoulder.  This state's fish and game laws are not easy to understand by any stretch of the imagination and to top that off, it always seems like they're changing them on us.  An old friend of mine from Alabama once told me that their hunting and fishing regulations are pretty easy to understand.  It if doesn't say you can then you can't.  Maybe a little too simplified.......

[Curly]

I agree with Gopher.  The possession limit of not more than 2 daily limits means that technically you can not have more than 2 daily limits in your possession...........(doesn't matter whether they are in your home freezer).  When I used to duck hunt all the time, I was aware that occasionally we would have more than our possession limit of ducks in the freezer.  But, what are you going to do?

You just have to realize that you are technically breaking the law and just don't give an officer a reason to come check your freezer.   Oh, and finding a good recipe for duck doesn't hurt either.   The guys that are really going to be potentially way over the possession limit are the guys saving all the ducks in a season for jerky or pepperoni. 

[BuckeyeMan]

Here is what I have found.  WAC does not have a specific item in there for possession limit, other than

"WAC 232-12-001
   
Definition of terms.
  Definitions used in rules of the commission are defined in RCW 77.08.010. In addition, unless otherwise provided:"


Here is an entry to the Washington Register, but I am not certain the exact interaction as to the code itself.  I understand this to be revisions to the code as deemed fit. Remember, we are dealing with the government, so it's likely that the laws sort of lay haphazardly on one another rather than existing in a logical sequence.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/laws/wsr/1997/07/97-07-076.htm

summary in here is, for those not wanting to look to bullet 11 "(11) "Possession limit" means the number of daily limits allowed to be retained in the field or in transit."

So the way that I read this, in my not so lawyerly way is

They amended the definitions to the law in 97.

There is no further amendment to the law

Therefore, this falls under the "otherwise provided" of 232-12-001 and is the legitimate definition.

[xd2005]

Not that anyone cares what I think, but I've seen actual quotes of game rule definitions by Tex and Cliff explaining the rule and showing it does not mean TOTAL possession, but possession while in the field. I'm kind of confused why there is still an issue.

Gopher- it seems you have talked to a number of different officers/wardens regarding this, have you asked any to quote the actual rule that they are interpreting? It either exists or does not exist. One thing I do know, people can say "officer so-and-so told me the laws says this" and the officer/warden or judge will simply look at the rule as it is written and apply as such.

[Fishnclifff]

Well I'm gonna eat a big plate of crow here.

 I am also issuing a public apology to Gopher, who i sent a PM to and was an a**hole in my message to him. Gopher, i am sorry the way I acted toward you.

After doing a lot of internet research on this issue, this issue is being debated on numerous forums nation wide.

The federal law, 2009 CFR Title 50, Volume 6, gives the definitions of possesion, and related terms.

 It does specify field possesion limits as 2 daily limits. But, the possession definition is more restrictive.
It states you have to give the birds away as gifts, or send them to a taxidermist. You are allowed only 2 daily possesion limits.

There is an opinion by USFW, that says birds remain in your possesion until consumed. On a forum in the south, there was talk alluding to members of a club that were cited for being over the limit, because they had pepperoni sticks made from duck, that had not been consumed. No proof was offered, just comments made. Asinine if you ask me.

I found some court rulings on the issue.

1 from Louisiana, a guy was ticketed for over the possesion limit while picking up the shot birds from a boat blind. he took his small boat to retrieve 8 ducks shot by the party on the boat. He shot 2, but picked up all 8. the wardens called him to shore and cited him. Pricks.
He appealed and lost, because they used the strict definition of possesion in the field rule.
The appelate judges noted in their decision, some ambiguity of the possesion definition, but because he didn't question the definition in his defense, they did not make a ruling on it.

In California, a goober, Not you Goober, went out shooting ducks for the hell of it and they caught him over the limit in the field. They obtained a search warrant for his house and found 300 ducks and 28 geese, whole, uncleaned, unplucked in his freezer. He admitted he didn't have any idea what to do with them.
They used the federal definition of possesion to charge him with gross poaching. He pled no contest and was sentenced.

It appears this law places honest hunters in a possible quagmire of fed. **it while hunting.

 After 86 yrs, you would think they would have clarified this definition by now.

So it seems the LEO's are  happy using the fed. definition to bolster a simple charge into a larger case

Seems the only way out is to get the state to change the verbage to equal fishing and upland game: IE::
Possesion ends when the game is in a processed form.
Seems like a big DUH, but it is the govt we are dealing with.

Anyone in the know with state legislators can put this bug in their ear, maybe get it changed for next year.

A Texas sports writer noted in an article on the subject, there is talk of the feds raising the possesion limit to 3 time the daily limit for the 2011-2012 season. Who knows.

Now, i will go stand with my nose in the corner, until I learn to play nice with others.

[goober]

Well, now that we're all pizzed out....What you believed is a common misconception and while few fall victim to the law, it is there. It really is due to states telling the guys their version of the law without stating that the federal version is different..sort of setting you up because I know that they know.

I remember the first time I asked a Fed about that and his attitude was as if I was some dirtbag trying to rape the resource. He proceeded to give me a lecture about how hunting isn't intended to be subsistence down here (my example to him was that I like to eat ducks throughout the year, instead of living on them during the duck season to stay within the limit).

Another example as to how the difference between the two agencies can be misleading happened when steel shot first came out. It was only required in zones around certain refuges and we were told by state wardens that they weren't enforcing it off of the refuge itself. Foolishly, we believed them and were hunting on private land 1/4 mile within the boundary (but not on the refuge) and ran into a federal warden, who promptly issued the citation (his statement, 'Well, we're enforcing it"). Never trusted one guy's statement again.

Thank's for pursuing it to a conclusion and addressing it in a classy manner.

[ICEMAN]

What a clustertruck! 

Good thing you guys waited till the season closed to figure this out... 

So what is my possession limit on deer, elk or bear...all that steak in my freezer? How about those razor clams I canned last year?  How about the mushrooms I sauteed and froze this year?

Personally, I am a bit tired of feeling that big brother is setting me up, or watching a bit too closely to what I am doing. I don't want to break any laws, but for crying out loud, your average duck hunter on this side my have a hard time reaching a possession limit in the freezer. IMHO, waste of wildlife is the law I want enforced. When I come across a pile of ducks with the breast meat ripped out and the entire rest of the bird tossed aside.... This is the law I want enforced, this is waste IMHO. How about that pile of salmon on the riverbank with their eggs yanked out?


I give up.