Springer Fans?

[Hornseeker]

I have owned several labs and a mutt springer/gp.... he was a fantastic dog and so were the labs, but I am just thinking I'd like to try something different. Anyone a springer fan? Can you tell me a bit about them? I've been around a few, I enjoyed them. I like the versatility... I love their looks...

Pros

Cons???

Thanks!

[FC]

Very hyper, very friendly. Whimper, whine, howl when you come home etc. always happy to see you, great kid's dog. Mine had to be put down when she was 19 after being knocked down by the neighbors truck, she broke a hip. They can be excitable house pissers though so you have to watch it if they start doing that and ignore them when you first get home until they settle down a bit.

[Bluemoon]

If I could only have one dog it would be a Springer....IMO they are the most versatile of all the hunting breeds...If you do decide on one however do your home work and research the breeding...Don't be afraid to ask for help and opinions....If you want to watch some work come on down...

[Hornseeker]

Good lookin pup there!

As far as research and such, I will put some time in, however, i am not going to put all my eggs in the pedigree basket. One thing I'm looking at right now is a litter a guy had not far from here. There are some questions I need to ask, but evidently they are not "registered".... I'll fill ya in when I get info. Thing is, this springer/shorthair cross I've got right now is the best dog I've been around aside from some hounds I grew up with.... so Im not stuck on registrations and pedigrees... Hell...I guess he was a design dog... a Springer Pointer or a German Spaniel or somesuch???

 

[CamoDup]

I have had 2 springers and they have been the best dogs!  they both had (i say had but one is still kickin) the best personalities, very mellow and GREAT bird dogs.  I just got my new pup (which is a lab), he is hunting behind and learning everything from our female springer. i just hope that he turns out to be the bird dog as she is! she will turn 10 this year so i needed to get a pup so he could learn the ropes from her.  hopefully my dad will soon get another springer!! great dogs!

[SpringerFan]

Well, as you can see by forum name, I kinda like Springers. 

They are great dogs. Very smart, loyal and want to please. They can also be a little talky (mine talks beack if he hears no). Not much of a barker. Can piddle when he first sees me. So when I get home I go right out the back door to the yard. After that, much fun and very loving.

Every morning we share a solid 30 minutes sitting on the couch (him in my lap) just getting his love.

As for hunting....holy crap!!! You have to watch them in the field. I need to make mine rest at times. All he wants to do it hunt.

As mentioned, watch the breeding. I can put you in touch with some good breeders through WWESSC

[Stilly bay]

this is one time where you may want to pay close attention to a pedigree, as there are field bred springers and show springers. sometimes you may get lucky with a show springer  that will be a good hunter, but you would be much better off with a dog from a proven field line. I grew up with a field bred springer and she was nick named the bird bomb. my brother has a show springer and while the dog has a great personality and more hair than fabio.... its dumber than a box of S&%T.

other than that, springers are outstanding upland/waterfowl/family dogs.

[Hornseeker]

Well, I know a lot of you will not recommend this, but I have a line on some pups and am pretty excited about them actually...

Just a tad bit of background...I grew up with a lot of dogs....a few labs, but mostly hounds. I never put a lick of stock in a pedigree... I saw papered dogs that had pedigrees 50 feet long that were worthless or ended up with bad hips...I've seen mutts that were 3-4 breeds mixed together that were as good a dogs as walked the earth. I also have this shorthair/springer cross that I LOVE... bought him at a feedstore in Spokane for $50 back in 98 and his 13th birthday was a few days ago...

Anyhow, I found a guy a few towns away that WON a puppy at a banquet 4 yrs ago. A male, black and white springer. The breeder was out of Idaho, field dogs, and was selling the pups for $750. According to this guy, this dog has a fantastic demeanor and though he only hunts a bit, has proven birdy and useful. However, he couldnt care less about papers and never registered the dog (I know, this is where I have to "trust" the guy that his whole story is true? Could have picked up this rez dog off the street and is "claiming" it was from a pedigreed litter??)

Then, 2 yrs ago his daughter begged him to get a female so they could have a litter of puppies... They found a local litter with 2 registered parents and picked one up. Again, he did not register the female... Anyhow, They now have a litter... I am going to take a look at both parents and see what I think, but its about what I'm looking for. For $100 I can get a pup with his tail docked and his first shots... they are ready to go in 15 days from now!

Since tehy are not "guaranteed" or pedigreed.... what would you recommend I look for when I look at the parents??? I'im pretty excited really....

[buckhorn2]

If they don;t work out on birds Ernie you could still try them on that bigfoot.

[Hornseeker]

 

[jetjockey]

I get to hunt over springers in PA for pheasants.  They are meat springers who see 40-50 days in the field a year.  They are great hunting dogs with close range and great retrieves.  IMO they are perfect for hunting milo, corn, and other kinds of fields with rows that really allow pheasants to run.  They might just be the perfect all around pheasant dog.  However, with that said, Id still pick a brittany over a springer any day.  I don't like boot lickers, which means Im not a huge fan of labs either for upland birds.  I want a big running dog that covers a ton of territory, and knows how to handle, and pin wild birds.  If you like close ranging dogs that you don't have to train much, then by all means, go with a springer.  Its pretty easy to put one down and kill lots of birds over them.  However, if your like me and are kind of lazy, then get a big running pointing dog.  I prefer a dog to do the hunting, not me. I don't like to walk within 30 yards of every piece of cover I can find. 

[SpringerFan]

If you like close ranging dogs that you don't have to train much, then by all means, go with a springer.  Its pretty easy to put one down and kill lots of birds over them.  However, if your like me and are kind of lazy, then get a big running pointing dog.  I prefer a dog to do the hunting, not me. I don't like to walk within 30 yards of every piece of cover I can find. 

Uh.....wow. Don't have to train much? Really? Now if you get a good dog from a good line I would agree a lot of what they do is natural. But training is required. All the time for any hunting dog. Not sure where you are coming from....

If you like a dog to hold a bird by pointing so you can walk right up and blast it from 15 feet.......go pointer. If you like to see animation and enjoy the challenge of actually having to aim to hit the bird, go with a flushing dog.

Just my opinion of course. Different hunting styles require different dogs.

[jetjockey]

Im not saying there is no training required, but a springers naturaly trait is to flush birds.  They do it naturally.  A pointer will point naturally as well, but it takes a lot more training to get one to hold a bird.  A pointing dog busting birds at 100 yards is a really big problem.  A springer busting birds at 30 yards is pure shooting enjoyment.  Thats all I was trying to say.  Its the exact reason some guys with pointing dogs don't like them to run more then 30-40 yards.  An untrained pointing dog will bust lots of birds, its not a problem if they are close ranging dogs and you can shoot over them, but pointing dogs tend to run a lot bigger then flushing and retrieveing dogs.
 
As far as blasting a bird from 15 feet, well thats the nice thing about a good pointing dog.  Shots are easier and you don't lose nearly as many birds. 

[SpringerFan]

Im not saying there is no training required, but a springers naturaly trait is to flush birds.  They do it naturally.  A pointer will point naturally as well, but it takes a lot more training to get one to hold a bird.  A pointing dog busting birds at 100 yards is a really big problem.  A springer busting birds at 30 yards is pure shooting enjoyment.  Thats all I was trying to say.  Its the exact reason some guys with pointing dogs don't like them to run more then 30-40 yards.  An untrained pointing dog will bust lots of birds, its not a problem if they are close ranging dogs and you can shoot over them, but pointing dogs tend to run a lot bigger then flushing and retrieveing dogs.
 
As far as blasting a bird from 15 feet, well thats the nice thing about a good pointing dog.  Shots are easier and you don't lose nearly as many birds. 

Got it. Wasn't sure what you were implying. And I have seen what you described. A nice looking pointer running 100 yards out in front flushing birds left and right. Not a pretty sight.

[ecnclan]

Best dog we've had.  Great Family dog and a pleasure to hunt with.

[Stickerbush]

Ellensburg has one, I like it. it springs!

[MuleySniper]

We've had 3. The first one was def and I was real little so I don't remember it much. Our second was a big male (talking like 80 lbs no chit) but he was fat at that weight and wasn't hunting anymore. He was a great dog. The third, technically not mine but my dads is a rather large female (not the best diet) LOL. She's real birdy but has only been out once. More pets rather than hunters but has the lines and has been once or twice. We'd like to hunt her more but realistically bird hunting comes towards the bottom of the list when it comes to hunting priorities and time. They are great dogs. Require quite a bit of grooming. Ours have all had mellow dispositions but can get hyper when all worked up. My dads stinks pretty bad and is real gassy, but I think the scrap food diet has something to do with it. Other than that I thing they are good dogs. Personally I'm more into the mastiffs and bully breeds only because I know how little I bird hunt and I prefer more of an intimidating looking dog to patrol my home

[Ellensburg]

Ellensburg has one, I like it. it springs!

Why thank you kind sir.. Yes it is a model 2010 springer. Not only does it spring, it runs hard and doesn't use much fuel.

[dad98684]

we had a springer that lived to be 16. he was a bit short the kids he did not know, & a bit stuburn, but that was his only short comings.

[Hornseeker]

I actually looked at a little this weekend. They'll be ready in two weeks. I think I'll end up with one. The parents were both on site and were a joy to be around...good looking dogs too.

Psyched...  Reading Richard Wolter's "Game Dog" right now....

[Ellensburg]

Read the book "hup"

[Hornseeker]

Yep! Will do.

[Hornseeker]

Anyone have it and want to share?

[Hangfire]

I have had three purebred springer's. The first and the one I have now had a little bench strain in them. The second was all field  breeding. All three loved to hunt but. The first one took after her dad and got mean and aggressive towards children. When she snapped at my granddaughter she went away even though a excellent hunter and retriever. The current dogs dad was a field trial champion bred to a female with about 1/4 bench strain. She came out showing the bench strain, bigger frame and not as fast. She is not as good a retriever as either parent.

All were very smart, loved to hunt and I had many remarkable tales to tell about them They are pets 12 months of the year and hunt much less. I could not tolerate when the first dog got dangerous around small children.  There is a condition called Springer Rage, most common in the bench strain, with no notice the afflicted dog goes insane biting any and everthing.

If I get another dog when this one goes it will be a field strain springer of good breeding. The second dog had every thing I could ever wanted in a dog, hunting, obedience, loveable submissive personality. Cancer took her at 9

When she was put down my then 10 year old grandson, wrote the following poem about her in 10 minutes

Memories of Penny

Penny was a good dog,she never hurt no one.
But then one day she left us, her time on earth was done.
You don't know what I'd do, You don't know what I'd give,
If I could see her  one more time,If I could see her live.
That Penny was a good girl, she always did what she was told,
But I guess that's what happens when dogs get old.
If I could see old Penny, You know what just what I'd say.
I'd say, Please come on  back with us for just a day.
The holidays are are coming, and yet we will not hear,
the voice of that all Penny dog, that we all loved so dear.
I have a lot of memories, so much that I remember,
I'll always know that she died , 5 days before December.
You might see her, and  when it's clear, by Joe, I think you might!
You'll see her outlined in in the sky, on a beautiful starlite night.
But as the years go by, most broken hearts will mend,
and now my tearful poem, nears the tearful end........
Goodbye Penny

[Hornseeker]

That is a sweet poem Hang... unreal for a 10 yr old!!

The field line sure "looks" like a great line of dogs. The parents of the litter I looked at had great demeanors... we are likely going to pick up a pup later this week. The dogs are definitely not the 'field breed' but both parents are hunters and come from hunters. I dont know how far back you'd have to go to find any "bench breeding" in them... they are just from working dogs... and family pets...

Aggression will not be tolerated, regardless of breed, at my house....

[SpringerFan]

Aggression will not be tolerated, regardless of breed, at my house....

All this talk of Springer rage almost makes me laugh. Any dog can be a butt. I just love mine and he is the best family dog. Loving, funny, happy and smart.

Enjoy your pup. Even if it turns out that it is not a great hunter, you will have a great friend. Which is sometimes even harder to find. 

[Hornseeker]

I've read everything I can find on it (Rage)... it appears that the cases that have been studied have shown the dogs in some sort of dominance position/behavior... in other words, the owners never taught/showed the dog he/she was NOT the alpha. For some reason springers and even more so, cockers, have labeled with it, even though there are MANY breeds that have more dogs bites per year than those...??

Anyhow, I am not too worried about and am reallly looking forward to getting a pup. It looks as if Saturday will be the day!

THanks all

[Hangfire]

Springer Rage is not a laughing matter. From what I can find out it is a epileptic like condition that comes on suddenly and may quit the same. The dog bites at any thing. It is not like the alpha dog or a dog defending property, pups, food. What I have been told that it is primarily in bench dogs where appearance is everything. A very highly judged bench dog on the east coast had it and was used as a stud dog anyway. He threw beautiful pups that carried the genetic trait.

[Hornseeker]

This is the most technical/scientific bit I could find on it....

Whenever an English Springer Spaniel displays aggressive behavior, everyone suspects “Springer Rage Syndrome”.  Visions of a maniacal dog instantly come to mind, frothing at the mouth, with death as the inevitable conclusion for the dog.

“Rage Syndrome” is an old term, essentially a misnomer that should be dropped from the behavior vocabulary.  Rage implies a violent, emotional reaction.  While this may apply to sudden outbursts of violence in people, it really doesn’t help us determine why a similar incident occurred in dogs.  The records of many dogs previously diagnosed with “Springer Rage Syndrome” were reviewed, and various forms of aggression were actually displayed. As part of my own behavior practice, I frequently evaluate dogs with so-called “Rage Syndrome”.  So far, all of these dogs have been diagnosed with another form of aggression, including dominance aggression, fear-related aggression, resource guarding, and territorial behaviors.  Dominance aggression was the most common diagnosis, when current diagnostic criteria were applied. 

Ilana Riesner DVM, formally of Cornell’s behavior clinic, did most of the groundbreaking research on “Springer rage.”  Most of these springers actually showed a severe form of dominance aggression.  A careful behavioral history revealed that the “unprovoked” attacks typically occurred in social situations, even though the owners were unable to predict when an attack would occur.  One of the unique features of springers with this form of dominance aggression is the lack of warning before the aggression.  The “glazed look” noted by owners is actually a very intense stare and dilated pupils.  This is caused by sympathetic nervous stimulation, part of the fight or flight response.  Whereas most dominant dogs gradually escalate the level of threat in social situations, moving from a stare, to growl, to lip curl, to snap and finally to bite, springers seem to move from stare to full-blown attack, skipping the intermediate stages.  These dogs lacked impulse control and over-reacted in situations they perceived as threatening.  Pedigree research showed that the most severe cases in springer spaniels could be traced back to a common bloodline.  Cornell was very fortunate to be located in the geographic location to work with large numbers of these dogs, with the cooperation of breeders and owners.

Many of the dogs studied by Dr. Reisner had abnormally low amounts of serotonin metabolites in their urine and cerebral spinal fluid.  This suggested that the dominance aggression was associated with abnormally low levels of serotonin in the brain.  This corresponded with findings in violent mental patients and prison inmates.  Serotonin is one of the neurotransmitters, brain chemicals, that has a calming effect.  In most mammals, it seems to decrease the amount of aggression associated with dominance.  While it doesn’t necessarily change the social status of an animal, higher serotonin levels decrease the likelihood aggressive displays will be used to maintain that social position.  Based on these findings, medications that increase serotonin levels were used to treat dominance aggression in dogs.  About 50% of the dominant aggressive dogs respond to these drugs, with a decrease in aggressive displays.  The drugs don’t solve the problem, but they can make it safer and easier for owners to use behavior modification techniques to change the dog’s social status in the home.  This indicates that dominance aggression may, at least in some individuals, result from a brain abnormality on the chemical level.

Unfortunately, there is no commercial test to check serotonin levels in dogs.  Once a behavioral history indicates an individual dog may be a candidate for drug therapy, a 6 week therapeutic trial is usually recommended to see if they fall in the 50% who seem to have this chemical abnormality.  Prozac is the drug most commonly used and has the most success.  Clomicalm, a veterinary form of clomipramine used to treat separation anxiety in dogs, also affects the serotonin system.  A recent study, however, failed to show a reduction of aggressive displays when used in dominance aggression.

When treating any dominant aggressive dog, the prognosis depends on several factors:

1.       Age of onset of aggression – The younger the dog at the time of the initial aggression, the poorer the prognosis.  Most dominance aggression begins around the age of behavioral maturity, 1-2 years of age.  I have seen some dogs that already showed severe signs before 6 months of age.  On the other hand, I’ve seen some owners who don’t seek help until the dog is approaching middle age, although the initial warning signs were present much earlier.

2.      Duration of aggression – Since there is a learned component in any form of aggressive behavior, it makes sense that the longer the aggression has been going on, the harder it will be to convince the dog the household rules have changed.  Like any habit, owner behaviors that lead to aggression are also harder to change.

3.      Severity of the aggression – Dogs who display lower levels of aggressive behavior, such as growls, lip curls, and inhibited snaps, will be much easier to treat than dogs who explode with violent attacks. The severity of the displays is a stronger predicting factor for successful treatment than the frequency.  There is certainly less owner motivation for attempting treatment when the attacks result in severe injury, even when they are very infrequent.

4.      Predictability of the aggression – If owners can predict which situations are most likely to result in aggression, such as guarding objects or a favored resting place, then measures can be taken to prevent those situations.  In addition, safe training sessions can be set up to teach alternative behaviors.  If an owner, even with the help of an experienced behaviorist, cannot predict the aggression, it will be far more difficult to treat.

5.      Owner / family profile – This determines the owners’ motivation to treat the dog.  Some owners will not be able to successfully treat some aggressive dogs, even if there is a treatment program that may be successful.

         Dominance aggression seems to arise from three different family profiles.  Some dogs seem to become dominant by default, because no one else in the family took the leadership role.  These are the easiest to treat, as the owners simply need to be educated and shown what to do.  Other situations result from a mismatch in personalities…an assertive dog with a permissive owner.  These can also be treated, but owners may become uncomfortable with the necessary lifestyle changes required to live with the dog.  Finally, there are those individual dogs that are genetically extremely assertive.  They would probably be difficult for any but the most experienced dog trainers.  These dogs are the most difficult to treat, as they resist losing the role of top dog and constantly test the owners throughout life.

Children add another factor to the equation.  An adult can make an informed decision to treat an aggressive dog, potentially placing themselves at risk of injury.  A child cannot.  Children are more likely to be injured, as they often do things inadvertently that may challenge an aggressive dog, even something as simple as eye contact.  The face and neck are the most common locations for bites, as the child’s size places them at head level with the dog.  As a veterinarian and a behaviorist, I would never argue against euthanizing an aggressive dog if there were children in the household.  Our first responsibility has to be the safety of those children.

The form of aggression commonly called “rage syndrome” can be seen in any breed, but has been documented most frequently in English springer spaniels and English cocker spaniels.  This term simply describes the presentation of the aggressive behavior and does not tell us anything about the underlying cause.  Most of these dogs have been diagnosed with dominance aggression, but that is not always the case. 

Unfortunately, dominance aggression is probably most commonly found in show lines.  It makes sense, when you think about it, as a successful show dog must be confident and assertive to deal with all the stresses of the show ring.  We’ve selected for this personality.  Show people instinctively handle these dogs, maintaining leadership without squelching that spark that catches the judge’s eye.  Trouble occurs when offspring from these lines go into homes with owners who don’t know how to handle these assertive personalities.  Most breeders are great at carefully placing the most assertive puppies into homes with the right type of owner, providing lots of great advice and guidance to prevent problems from developing. 

Assertive personalities exist along a continuum.  At some point in the breeding program, an individual may be produced that lies at the extreme, the “rage dog”.  It is vitally important that breeders recognize those dogs whose personalities lie closer to the extreme, and eliminate them from the breeding program.  This is probably what happened in English springer spaniels.  An extreme individual was retained in the breeding program, producing even more extreme offspring, and “Springer Rage” was born.  It can happen in any breed and any bloodline if breeders are not vigilant.  Springer breeders have worked very hard to try to eliminate this trait within their breed and are to be commended.

There is another form of aggression, called mental lapse aggression, that has been previously described as “rage syndrome”.  Dr. Bonnie Beaver, at Texas A&M, first described this type of aggression.  The cause is unknown, but the EEG brain wave pattern resembles that of a wild animal.  It is probably not a seizure disorder, as these dogs do not respond to anticonvulsants.  These dogs display sudden, violent aggression.  It can start at any age, but usually occurs in young adults, and becomes progressively worse.  A careful behavioral history shows absolutely no pattern of predictability. There is no known treatment, except euthanasia.  It is probably very rare, but can be very difficult to distinguish from a severe case of dominance aggression.  In the long run, it probably isn’t that critical to make the distinction, since euthanasia is the safest course in either event.

Seizures can also cause unprovoked aggressive episodes, but the EEG generally shows seizure spikes, a different pattern from mental lapse aggression.  When seizures are the suspected cause of aggression, the veterinarian should do the typical medical evaluation for any other type of seizure.  These dogs often do very well on anticonvulsants.  Owners must be prepared to deal with the necessary monitoring, as well as the risks involved with owning a dog who shows aggression during a seizure.  Otherwise, they are handled just like any other seizuring dog. 

Depending on how you break it down, there are probably 20 different forms of aggression in the dog.  Multiple forms within the same individual may all interact together to produce a single biting episode.  Without understanding all these factors, it is extremely difficult to successfully treat an aggressive dog.  “Rage Syndrome” has been applied to many types of aggression, primarily dominance aggression, mental lapse aggression, and seizure-related aggression.  This term needs to be dropped from our vocabulary when discussing causes, prognosis, and treatment of aggressive dogs.

On a final note, aggressive dogs should be evaluated by someone with the expertise and experience to make an accurate diagnosis and effective treatment plan.  Unfortunately, anyone can hang out a shingle and call themselves a “behaviorist”, whether or not they have the credentials.  It makes it difficult for people needing help to weed out the good behaviorists from the bad ones.  The best source of help are board certified veterinary behaviorists, a PhD behaviorist who can work with a regular veterinarian, or someone who has studied extensively under a certified behaviorist.  When in doubt, start with your regular veterinarian, who can start ruling out medical causes for aggression and help direct you to qualified experts.

Addendum:

We are currently changing how we look at dominance aggression and social status in the dog.  Social status is very fluid, changing with the situation and individuals involved.  Dominance is a relative term, not a description of a dog’s personality.  It cannot exist within a vacuum.  It requires interaction between at least two individuals for social status to even come into play.  While a dog might be described as having an assertive or confident personality, dominance should be reserved for describing individual social interactions. A dog may be the dominant individual in one circumstance and the subordinant individual in another circumstance.  The term “dominance aggression” is gradually being replaced with “status-related aggression”.  Some behaviorists recommend dropping the entire dominant / submissive paradigm.  I happen to disagree, since that negates the fact that social status does exist among dogs and can come into play during aggressive interactions.  However, I agree that “dominance” has developed a very negative connotation among the dog training literature.  Too much emphasis has been placed on “dominating” and controlling our dogs.  We no longer recommend using the “alpha roll” as a form of discipline, nor do we worry about a dog “winning” a game of tug-o-war, for example.  Behavior modification, particularly for the aggressive dog, should be as non-confrontational as possible, not adversarial.  Current dog training techniques focus on building a relationship of mutual respect and trust.   

Lyn Johnson DVM
         Companion Animal Behavior Services
         Bartlesville, OK

[TeacherMan]

I have a 14 month old English Springer Spaniel and he is a great family dog and is starting to pick up bird hunting. I have not fixed him because we do plan on getting a little female in the next year. I have always had labs and my springer is smarter than most of my labs that I've had. Example he will stay when I tell him to when retrieving and fetch when I give him the command. Not bad for 15 months in my opinion. Anyway my family and I love them.

P.S. in the next couple months we are looking for a nice female english springer spaniel pup that is dark liver and white AKC.

[Hornseeker]

Nice lookin dog Teacher!!!