new info on 4 pt restriction

[bearpaw]

As I have posted previously in this thread, we may find that APR is effective for 3-4 years and then will not be needed. I actually fear that extended use of APR's for 8 to 10 years or more could be a detriment to antler genetics by protecting inferior bucks over many generations. But for the short term goal of reducing buck harvest, it has been proven in numerous areas APR should accomplish that goal.

To ask if APR's work or are effective is an incomplete question. You must identify the purpose of the APR then you can answer if it is effective.

In every state that implemented APR, total buck harvest was significantly reduced for the first couple years. The real controversy comes when you discuss the long term effects.

After the 5 year trial period is complete, we will need to ask ourselves, should APR be continued? At that time I think it may be wise to remove the APR, but at this time I really do not know, until we see the effects over 5 years, it will be hard to say what the outcome will be.

But as I said before, we do not know unless we try, and these 2 units are a large enough area to provide a good analysis.  

The main problem I see with limited-entry permits is that you remove opportunity for young hunters wanting to try hunting. Over time, you will destroy young peoples interest in hunting which could help lead to the eventual loss of hunting altogether. I get a large portion of my hunting clients from Arizona, New Mexico, Nevada, and Utah. These people tell me, "we have all kinds of trophy animals that we would love to hunt, but you can never draw a tag, maybe once every 5 or 6 years we get to hunt our home state".

[muleyguy]

once 4pt or better is instituted in NE WA, it will go the same way as the 3 pt or better for mule deer in this state;  it will take an act of congress to get rid of it;  that was supposed to be a"temporary" program also;  but, it will never be gotten rid of now;

here is what you are not understanding:

NE WA is different then Mississippi and Pennsylvania;  those areas have large and growing whitetail populations;  many of those APR's were put into effect back East to drive people to shoot more antlerless deer;  so the reason why in those states that it isn't quite as bad is because the hunter population has the choice to shoot EITHER a 4 pt buck or better, or a DOE;  many of the hunters choose to shoot a doe instead of waiting for a 4pt or better buck;

so, much of the hunting pressure is spread out amongst not only 4pt or better bucks, but also the doe population.

We do not have the same luxury here.......NE WA cannot afford any more does being shot, and, the general tag will not allow for it;  So, ALL of the general season hunters will be focused on the larger buck classes.

This is a COMPLETELY different scenario.  Much of their general hunting population chooses to just shoot a doe;  our general hunting population does not have that ability because our whitetail herd is in decline.  When these hunters choose to shoot a doe, that is potential buck they did not shoot. 

So, the hunting pressure is spread out amongs a wider portion of the deer population then just the older age class bucks.

The other reason that APR's cannot be temporary, and become permanent, especially in a state like WA is because how do you unwind it?

The buck population under your APR proposal in 5 yrs will consist primarily of 1.5 yr old and 2.5 yr old bucks, the most vulnerable buck class there is;  if you suddenly do away with APR's after 5 yrs, it will be a wholesale slaughter;

That is why it is so difficult to get out of the APR management scheme, especially in this State;  So, you are right back where you started;  the only way to get out of the APR treadmill is to massively restrict buck harvest for a few years after you get rid of it;

How well do you think that is going to go in this state???

So, what does the department do???  They get stuck in the endless rut of APR's, can't get out of them because it would be politically too hard to restrict the tag numbers to get out of it, and, just shorten the season;  The shortened seasons focus more pressure on an already pressured resource.

If hunters are faced with a choice of APR's, which result in the avg hunter shooting a 2.5 yr old buck and seeing a bunch of 1.5 yr old bucks while he is hunting OR having to face several years of very restricted tag sales to get out of the APR, he will choose to continue the APR every time;

It's a trap..........explain to me how we are going to get out of the APR after 5 yrs?? 

Isn't it just much simpler and better in the long run to restrict tags for a few years, grow the buck population quickly, and hopefully the herd recovers by this time to support a general season again??

That program results in much better buck population dynamics, works very quickly, does not have any genetic problems, and is very easy to "get" out of.  How much opposition do you think there will be in 3 yrs when you want to go back from a draw to a general season hunt??

APR's have had limited success in Eastern populations that are large and growing;  our whitetail population is completely different;  it is stagnant at best, and is being subjected to massive predation by cougars and now wolves;

We aren't talking about limiting the ability to hunt once every 5 or 6 years;  A simple 1/3 reduction in buck harvest for several years would do the trick;  at worst, you are only looking at not being able to hunt 1 out of 3 years;  if the population recovers quickly, (which it can) you can probably quickly go back to general seasons very quickly.

That is a tremendously small price to pay;  at some point, we have to stop the "its all about the children" argument;  I would rather have my child hunt 2 out every 3 years and enjoy a good experience then be able to hunt all 3 years and have a terrible experience;

If you want to get young people excited about hunting, you need to increase the quality of experience of it;  its that simple;  9 day seasons, restricted to 3 pts or better, with 5,000 yahoo's on every ridge around you is not a good experience, and, is what is ultimately driving young hunters away from the sport.

The defining question is:

"How do propose the State unwind the APR in 5 yrs "

You can't just get rid of it in this state with the hunting pressure and general season structure we have;

[huntnnw]

And comments by muleguy and miles really show you have never been here. Just reading stuff on paper. They can't swim the river dude,if u knew how the units were divided u would know that! Spokane has pet whitetails hangin out in school yards downtown, hell i hear they hangout with gang members in the inner city, oh wait u probaly no some sort of migration route thru spokane and over i -90 and its barricades my bad   :bash:And yearlings muleguy... nope quality..last year for example in a 4 day period in 127 i saw around 30 different bucks all being branched 15 of them 115-130" and 2 over 150! Northside would you see this ever? Hell no !!where I see piss poor bucks is the northside. And once again this all comes from people who do not live here and experience it first hand, this would be like me throwing my opinion around on lets say the blues..I don't live there nor hunt I dont need to say anything cause I don't know!

[muleyguy]

no, I don't live there, but a bunch of my buddies do......they all have deer hanging out in their back yards, in fact many of them have set trail cams up;  I have spent considerable time driving around in these areas and have literally seen hundreds of whitetails just as you have described, hanging around golf courses, school yards, Safeway parking lot, people's yards, walking down the street, churches, housing developments, eating peoples flowers, etc.  These guys grew up in the Mica Peak area and know it well.

and, I have seen lots of bucks; nothing in the 130" class though......lots of 1.5 yr old and 2.5 yr old bucks though;  nice little basket racks that most in WA would mistake for a 130" class buck.

funny also, my buddies set out apples, salt licks etc and never seem to get anything much in quality in their trail cams in the back of their house either; 

I am sure there are decent bucks, there always are in area with HIGH levels of private ground, like 127;  I have a buddy who does manage to get a nice 130" class type buck out of 127 occassionaly but this has nothing to do with the 3pt rule;  it has everything to do with being able to hunt a very private piece of ground, of which there is lots of in 127;

The areas north of the river have much more public ground, so the hunting pressure is completely different then 127;

The latest numbers from the WDFW for hunter numbers:

Areas North of River:  30,000 hunters
Areas South of River:  5475 hunters

Take a look at your WA Gazetteer also and it doesn't take long to see that 127 is almost all private;  and there are millions of acres of public ground north of the river;

comparing 127 to north of the river is not a valid comparison as the situation is completely different both in terms of hunter numbers and public ground.

the 3pt rule is not making bigger bucks in 127;  but, less hunting pressure and more private ground probably is.

You cannot compare 127 with the other areas, completely different.  Anybody, regardless of where they live should be able to understand this.

[muleyguy]

the other glaring problem with an APR in NE WA is the late general season structure;  so not only does APR put more pressure on mature animals, you combine that with a general rut season, and you are going to have a disaster in the mature age classes;

now, I'm not privvy to what is in the proposal, sounds like BP is, so maybe they are going to intitate the APR and do away with the late season?

But, instead of taking the drastic step of APR's, why not just get rid of the the general late season for a few years???

Much easier to do, will work very quickly to get more bucks into the population, and a general season can be reinstated quickly and easily??

Doesn't that sound like a much better route?

I mean if we can't agree on reducing tag numbers, then getting rid of the rut hunt for a couple of years would seem to be a quick and efficient means of getting more bucks into the population.

[C-Money]

Pennsylvania tried a 4pt restriction in the NW part of the state a while back. It is now a few years into it, and they have made a change due to hunters having a hard time identifing the 4th point. Hunters could see the 3 points on the main beam, but could not see the brow tine very well. So, PA will begin a new rule making deer with 3pt on the main beam legal. 2pts and a brow tine will not be legal. I read this in the Pennsylvania game news magazine. I fear this will happen in Washington, frustrate hunters and just be a mess. Washington should access PA's reports on this topic before diving into it. 

[ladybug]

I am a female and i feel these last posts are over "pussified" if i have ever read one...... please stop the pissing match i am sick of seeing this in the current post section.For no other reason than "i have seen this you seen that" get real live there and know youre own back yard.. P.S. huntnnw
 hang tough!! other guy cool move there then bitc*     p.s long time lurker few times poster like since 07

[huntnnw]

Once again you didn't read my post mule guy.. no chit theres more hunters up north as whole. The areas I am comparing are the same in every aspect!  and almost in size too!  and all private too..The late rifle hunt is out of the equation.. these areas are almost completely no shooting. The only difference is 3 pt min...  You are questioning me about deer and the size?.. wrong guy to be questioning that to. You don't get out much around 127 then.. there is alot!! of nice bucks in the unit and some mashers. The biggest bucks I have ever seen alive have been in 127, killed my second largest in 127. I would love to get on a post in your backyard and throw my rhetoric crap around and say my buddies say this and have this, good christ. I know every road in 127 and up in 124 and 121 north Spokane. I grew up here and hunted,scouted 4wd, camped and hiked every place imaginable here 1,000's of hours spent hunting deer around here.There is absolutely no comparison in hunting the fringe of north Spokane to south Spokane.. NONE! the quality of the late hunt is unbelievable! where you can see 5-10 bucks almost everyday out. You ever taken a drive around the little Spokane river?? thats a no shooting zone! tell me what you see around there in November, I know what its like, then cross the river and take a drive along hangman creek both areas pretty damn compareable, you would be shocked to see the difference in buck to doe ratios. Another example.. drive around Newman lk..which is almost all no shooting around the lake..then cross over and drive around liberty lk..hell just drive one side of liberty lk and u will see more bucks in 10 min then a day around newman..and again areas are identical and 10-15 mi apart!!. This is directly attributed to APR's in the units! None of the above points are valid in these areas, all the same, both all private, predatory issues the same, hunting seasons the same, winters the same and whats funny is the northern area holds the better of the habitat, thicker, more alfalfa, terrain is more conducive to escapement and overall looks better to me, but yet the bucks a sparse. and once again its my opinion, hell what do I know about whitetails around here apparently chit!

[BULLBLASTER]

 

i know the same is true, i have hunted both areas and much prefer the south with the APR.
... and i think huntnnw knows what a true 130" buck is, considering he doesnt even give a buck a second look until it hits at least 150...

[TheSkyBuster]

 That's what's wrong with the WDFW- they listen to what hunters want instead of doing what is biologically best for the animals.  IMO

 

[huntnnw]

Also, I am in totally agreeance with removing it on mule deer.. they get that crappy gene in them where they are forks forever thats a bad deal... whitetails on the other hand dont..they get the 4pt gene where they are 4x4's forever.

[huntnnw]

wow 6 years lol christ... yeah and your comments really show you have no idea of the geographical lay out of this area..ignorance

[huntnnw]

WTH does this have to do with the topic?....Nothing! other than u cant handle being wrong or ignorant to your claims and so called facts on the topic at hand..every one of your points or moot

[huntnnw]

haha and this comes after a post about me posting pics...holy chit 

I have brought up valid points and you cant anwser them..you just move to another item to argue and fight over..seems all you do on here anymore.

[Miles]

haha and this comes after a post about me posting pics...holy chit 

I have brought up valid points and you cant anwser them..you just move to another item to argue and fight over..seems all you do on here anymore.

You are delusional.