Gunshy Lab Pup

[Elkstuffer]

I have an 8 month old pup that seems to be somewhat gun shy. I took him out the other day and shot the .22 rifle in a different direction from him after throwing the bumper. He was cowering real bad. I put the gun away and just started getting him excited about retrieving. Today when he saw the .22 he turned the other way and cowered again. Any ideas? I'm suppose to take him to Cooke Canyon next Wed.

[MP123]

I do the same thing but start with a cheapo cap gun first and then move to the .22 blanks.  Wait til they're eating and shoot it off moving a little closer each day.

Has your pup had any exposure to gunfire or was that the first time?

[luvtohnt]

Another good method you may want to try (I use this for when I am testing to see if they will need a lengthy exposure to noise). While throwing the bumper clap your hands as loud as possible, and turn it into a game. You can also do this around the house and it will ecome second nature to the pup, sort of a conditioning scenario rather than training though. This could be done easier, because you could take a break from stuffing elk every so often and do it at home instead of having to drive somewhere that allows shooting. Then as he no longer cowers you will have to move to the cap gun or .22 blanks. I personally have had much better results from the play method than the eating method.

On another note I have always wondered if Pavlov's principle would cause the dogs to drool at the sound of gun fire.

Brandon

[Old Dog]

On another note I have always wondered if Pavlov's principle would cause the dogs to drool at the sound of gun fire.

Brandon

Mine goes crazy when she see the gun.   I've never paid attention to how she reacts to the shot.  I'm too busy aiming.

[Elkstuffer]

Thanks guys. My other two labs just seemed to be naturals and I never had a problem one with either of them. I just found out that my 5 year old was chasing him around with his pop gun one evening when I was out of town hunting in Nov. He would have been about 4 months old at the time. I've been shooting the pop gun nearby while he is eating and I also have laid the .22 in front of his bowl. I'm pretty concerned about this and I'm wondering if I should illicit Doug's help at Cooke Canyon?

[carpsniperg2]

Put the gun next to the food, take the gun with you when you go outside to play. Try to get the idea that the gun is associated with fun and food. Then they will start to like being around the gun.

[Bluemoon]

Get rid of the bumpers and use some birds...We get more problem dogs in our kennels because of what you just described...You have a bird dog not a bumper dog...How many people here have ever called in a flock of bumpers into their decoys?  How many coveys of bumpers has anyone ever flushed out hunting?
O-Well keep doing what you are doing its job security for those of us that fix problem dogs.
Sorry for the compassion this subject is just a sore spot for me..
Birds not Bumpers is the motto at our kennel.

[Elkstuffer]

WOW! Did you mean LACK of Compassion? Most of us don't have an unlimited supply of birds. I use a bumber with a pheasant or chukar wrap with scent. I also plan on going over to work with Doug at Upland Dogs in Ellensburg (Cooke Canyon Hunt Club). Thanks for your input Bluemoon.

[wildweeds]

Wow,I really can't believe how many times I read about "Gunshy" and it's the same old song and dance with a .22 rifle and shooting around dogs when there is absolutley ZERO adrenaline rush running through their veins.

   #1 .22's and Live ammo is the biggest NO NO that ever could be. The rifling in the barrel causes a supersonic whirring pitch similar to a silent dog whislte that hurts their ears,Even 22 blanks make a hokey unatural high pitched "CRACK" versus the deeper "Boom" of a shotgun because of the Barrell length.

     #2.........As to the adrenealine rush.................It takes birds to do that,keeps their focus on the bird and when they do hear the "Boom" as they are in hot pursuit and the clip wing is coming down to the ground....................provided you've not fired right over their head..................they keep going to the bird like nothing has happend get it and THEN look to see what the ruckus was.

    #3 From my experiance over the course of 30 years of fiddling around with dogs I will say that 90% of gunshy dogs are made that way from human mistakes, the other 10% is from the genetics at play in the breeding.I have come to think that some dogs have a keener sense of hearing than others.


    #4 Once they are gunshy and you cure them,they are still going to be susceptable for a relapse if you do something stupid like take the dog hunting with 4 buddies and all blaze away at a flock of birds simultaneously .You'll need to hunt the dog either by yourself or take turns shooting birds for the dog it's first season to cement the lessons learned that the gun will not hurt the dog.

     #5 the CHEAPEST part of dog training is the very thing people are the CHEAPEST about and that is the BIRDS.In pointing dogs alot of people have to have every gizmo and gadget, e-collar,remote bird launcher,electronic backing dog, they got money to spend on electric gizmos that make everything about as fake as it can get and then cry like a schoolgirl because chukars or quail cost 5-9 dollars apeice.I'm off in a little tangent here but will say that there are retriever guys who also are "Gadget and Gizmo" afflicted also.

      #6 from what you've described I'll say your going to absolutley need "pro" help.I happen to know a pro that has a gunshy fix program and I have seen it in action at various stages from start to finish and it WORKS.I can honestly tell you that your dog WILL NOT BE GUNSHY after 1 month of the program.He GUARANTEES it.He had a Lab in that was so afraid of the gun that anything that remotely resembled the barrel of a gun that was in your hands would cause the dog to run and hide if loose or cower/lay down if on a lead.I saw the dog on the first session,another 2 weeks later and at 1 month.The difference was completley amazing and if you'd seen the start and finished product you'd swear it was 2 different dogs.

   #7 I really don't know who originally phrased this but it is 100% right on the mark ......."It takes BIRDS to make a BIRDDOG"

    #8 Trap/skeet ranges are the most often made mistake for gunfire acclimation,the shooting around the feed bag is the second IMO

     #9 I doubt that the dog is smart enough to correlate your boys chasing the dog with his pop gun 4 months ago and your 22.shooting. My suggestion is to give the lesson I got some 35 years ago at age 7 and explain that the dog is off limits. Times have changed but I got beat with the belt for it. My brother got a different lesson  he was shooting the shorthair with a red ryder BB gun.The old man made him drop his drawers,grab his ankles and then he used the BB gun on my brothers bare red ass.Needless to say one lesson was all that was required.

  #10 When someone says "I've always done it this way and never had a problem" examples are #8 on my list.............................They got really lucky with genetics and disposition of the dog.

   #11 You do not need an unlimited amount of birds for an acclimation to gunfire project, go and buy a half dozen pigeons,less if your dog has a soft mouth, strip the primary flight feathers from a wing or cut the tips off of a wing with some scissors,have the dog start retrieving the wing clips,make a game out of it that is fun fun FUN FUN FUN, then get a helper and have them start cracking the gun off from a distance.TIMING is EVERYTHING, sear the pin at the moment the dog is about at the bird.Some dogs will stop look back and then turn around and jump in and grab the flopping bird,most will be oblivious to the gun and just NAIL it and come back like it never even heard the gun.The latter is what you really want but the previous isn't bad neither.

   I had a setter  that I gave away on this board that was the most difficult dog I've ever owned to get acclimated to gunfire, he didn't care to chase birds,and was not at all interested in them,He would point them but had ZERO desire to chase,He was flinchy with the gun shooting homemade shotgun popper shells from 40 yards away.I worked hard to get his prey drive up and got him over it and Birdaddict on this board has him now. In the wrong  hands the dog would have been  a run and hide to the truck gunshy.The biggest reason I gave him away was that he had to be neutered for a genetic testicle defect and he wasn't classy enough to be a field trial dog.


  

[CP]

My lab doesn’t like the report of a .22.  When I’ve used the .22 blank powered launcher he hangs he head as soon as I touch it.  He hates all pistols and slinks off whenever he sees one (I've never used a pistol to train him, I'm guessing his trainer did though). 

But at the sound of a shotgun his ears up and he starts bouncing around looking for something to retrieve. Shotguns are fun, .22s are just sharp and hurt his ears and they never result in a real bird. 

[Bluemoon]

Did not mean for post to come across wrong with lack of compassion.  Fixing gunshy dogs and birdshy dogs have become a norm at our kennels.  We have had very good success in turning them around.  However most of the problems could have been avoided if the owners would have taken the time to do bird introduction and gunfire right.  I know Doug he is a good man there is a lot of mutual respect between us.

[Bluemoon]

Wildweeds do you field trial pointing dogs?

[wildweeds]

When I get a good one I do,I've learned over the course of 8 years that FT has ZERO to do with bettering a breed.I've got a really good dog in the kennel that tore em a new one for 3 years straight,............not one inquiry as to breeding.Setter people are weird they breed only to AF AA or SD CH's and then have the audacity to close their stakes to setters only which is STUPID. I met you before at blackrock in E Wa..........................................You tried to give me the Anchors Aweigh sired dog...................I think his name was "Clyde". All white big going pointer,would have been around 2005-06 I think,Same year you won the NAFC with Flair.I drove the dog truck at trials in E wa.

  3 years of trialing in non retrieving and 30 placements,got the crooked screw job about 10 times.Had the dog with R.J. and seldom went to trials because of having to work for a living.For some strange reason everyone thinks that R.J. MAKES his dogs which of course is false any good dog that performs well is more than likely naturally talented.I'd much rather save my vacation time for hunting,which is something that the setter ladies of the AKC have no idea about than go to a field trial.In the setter crowd I can count on 3 fingers the people that actually HUNT wild birds.Their NFC title is an absolute JOKE, I consider the OLGD All breed 42 starter(5  different breed NFCs entered) win I have the ribbion for to be far superior to a NFC title with 14 starters,the girls want to keep it small and on the west coast,they run everyone off with the DNA and Microchip requirement on all dogs. Quite frankly the Dna code is not a bad thing but do you really need to know the dna code of the dogs that finished 5th through ? The microchip is extremely stupid IMO,My dog has one and it's defective,and I never saw a dog scanned before it ran in 2006 nor did I see them checked when the brace was over.The other thing I have the problem with is a certain "Fence Rider" setter guy that trains for money and then runs dogs in the Amateur stakes, Your either a pro or your not...................pick a lane.And no one even squeaks about it and there is another setter guy that you would think that would be ALL OVER IT with a protest.

  AF stuff is just as crooked as evidenced by the pac coast derby outcome this past week, the RU dog came from behind 3 times,made one huge run off cast at close to time,the judges claimed they saw the dog at time(but really the scout had the dog on a rope behind a ridge) and used him over a female that ran a always forward true AA race without birds(at one point she was honking it on at 12 oclock 1 mile out,the ru dog also was birdless and another was birdless that ran a lateral SD race.The RU and the SD race dog were called back but the previously described female was not. Jip job because.............The CH and the Female that did not get called back were handled by the same handler......................Judges did not want to give him the whole enchilada,He's an Amateur handler and the RU dog is pro handled(The winning handler was the RU's scout,which is why we know he had the dog on a rope behind the ridge at time.

   BTW I thought that Flair should have been bred to Rockacre blackhawk or Fibber McGee.I knew the handwriting on the wall when I heard EFB as sire.I'd already seen the original picture of crossing Snakefoot and Damascus and the outcome was exactly what I'd dealt with, uncooperative,big running independant,self hunting,hardheaded runoffs that weren't all that hip on pointing with genetic defects(I say this because the one I had was riddled with genetic defects and one of those pups died for no reason at a shade over 2 years)

  Needless to say I've got a jaded view of the whole competiton thing as to how it supposedly betters the breed.May very well have been that way from the conception till about 1980's but seems it's  pretty clicky now.Real easy to see in the shorthairs,they are getting worse versus better.

 

[sakoshooter]

Walking them on leash at your local shotgun club while everone is shooting is a good way to get a pup used to the noise. Not real loud behind the trap/skeet/5 stand fields but lots of shooting from someone else and you can pay attention to your dogs. I do this with all of the dogs I train. They just walk at heel on leash with me as if it's normal. They don't even pay any attention to the shooting after a little while. I also do retrieves a couple empty trap fields down while the shooting is going on. I also heel my dogs while I shoot all of the above.

[Bluemoon]

Good memory Wildweeds
That would of been in 2003.  When I saved Clyde from being shot by an SOB AF person.  I rehab-ed him and took him and Flair to Nebraska in 2005.  Clyde won the NFC (the pigs that were going to shoot him took RU that was sweet) 2 days later won the NAFC with Flair for her 2nd NAFC title. (that was my last amateur run)  The AKC has most definitely dumbed down the trial dogs.. Now all Setters,Brittany's and Pointers don't need to retrieve to become FC's what good is a hunting dog that can't retrieve.  That is like the JH on pointing breeds it is a joke...At least a JH on a flusher or retriever means the dogs has a brain...

You are so right on the other group you spoke about also..Being a Pro I just have to watch what I say. Some people on here sing high praises about one that you mentioned.

I did the AF derby last year it was a joke for just the reasons you spoke of.  I still run my own dogs in trials I do enjoy it.   I now train hunt tests and meat dogs, since 2006 I have 15 Master Hunters under my belt 11 with 6 differant pointing breed and 4 with two different flushing breeds that is what I enjoy the true gentlemans hunting dogs.  Send me your name on a private email very curious.

Regards

[Elkstuffer]

Thanks Wildweeds, That's the kind of info that I was looking for. I appreciate your time.