Dave Ware's March 4th Presentation on Special Permits

[bobcat]

Did anybody listen to the audio transcripts for the March 4th & 5th Commissioner's meeting in Spokane? If not, go here: http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2011/03/audio_mar0511.html

Go to item 6 and click on "stream mp3 audio."

I can't believe the crap that comes out of his mouth. First, he lies again to the commission and says that they had public support for the changes to the permit system, and that they had been discussing the changes for two years before it was implemented.

Then, towards the end, he talks about one of the changes he plans on making, and that is to make MORE categories for quality permits that would be limited to those with 10 points or more. What a stupid idea. Just what we need- more categories when there are already too many as it is.   

[Curly]

Ok, I'm downloading it now and I will listen to it this morning.  I think it will just piss me off though. 

By me listening to it, it will likely cause the odds to increase for some of you to draw permits, because I will likely not apply for another permit in this state........

[Bob33]

Man, I wish I could believe that's an April Fool's prank...but I don't.

[trophyhunt]

I do not like the new system, and I hate the way they draw names. They explained it to me on the phone but it was too confusing to understand. when people can draw tags with one point and one guy in this state has 26 points and doesn't get drawn there is something very wrong with the system.  I have talked to Dave Ware about this and about the 10 or more point category. If we are going to keep this system which they will it produces too much money for them, then I love the Idea of a category that only lets people with 10 or more points apply.  I even think areas that only have 10 or fewer tags should only be available to people with 8 or more points.  I just wrong that us guys that have been waiting 16 years for certain tags get nothing while some lucky guy with 1 or 4 points gets the tag.  I believe you should have to sacrifice some time to draw some of our very special tags, and a few of us have for far too long.

[Curly]

Trophyhunt, sorry to disagree but I do disagree.  I think it would be a poor choice to have another category to place those applicants into with high points.  It is called luck of the draw.  They are the ones taking a chance by applying for permits with such high odds, they should just live with their choice.  Why should they be rewarded by having all their vast amount of points placed into each category and then since they are still whining about not getting drawn, be placed in yet another category to go for some coveted permits?


Dave Ware did admit that the chance of drawing Cow or Doe permits went down and so did buck permits.  He said quality went up slightly but for individuals the chances went down too. 

Bottom line from what I hear is that the new system was not that successful.  I haven't heard what the additional $500,000 dollars that they made has done for hunter access, but I have my doubts on what good that is.

[Curly]

Dave Ware commented that the new system was not a "hot issue" because they only got letters from 46 people.  Pretty sad that not more people commented, but then again they didn't give much time for people to figure out what they were doing. 

The two main problems with the system are:  1) Distributing points across the board.  2) Started out with too many categories.

Both of the problems above cannot be fixed easily.  How can they fix that?  They can't very well remove points now and be fair, and they can't really decrease the amount of categories because people will lose points that they purchased in some categories.  So, it looks like they are stuck with an unfair system............

They can add categories if they see a need but to reduce them would be tough.

I really liked drawing a cow permit every couple years, but I guess those days are gone.  Looks like I'll have to take up bow hunting to be able to hunt cows more often than every 10 years or so.

[westside Elkhunter]

The game departments point system is something they will probably never get right. They are just worried about making money. It would be nice if they did. Like in other states when you hit a certain Point number you knew you would draw the tag. In this state it is definite a luck of the draw. Another question how many people have 10 plus points going into some of the draws this year?

[Special T]

I'm always kinda surprised that they don't sit down a focus group of hunters to find out what the general public thinks, and what they are likely to do... I didn't have a bunch of points so what did i do? I sat out, didn't buy like i had in the past few years... It seems like they navigate blind and then are surprized at the outcome and have no exit strategy if thier idea doen't work out as planned.

[Ridgerunner]

they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags.  I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points.  Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past.  I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices.  Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years.  that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything.  I don't feel too sorry for those folks. 

[Curly]

The No. 1 thing that the new permit system was supposed to accomplish was to fund hunter access.  Dave Ware mentioned that it would be discussed later.  Was it discussed at that meeting.  I don't see mention of the issue in audio files from the meeting, but I could be missing it.

[westside Elkhunter]

If they did sit down with a group of hunters from archery.muzzleloaders and rifle. Would they actually do anything productive from the conversation. How many guys have 10 plus points for OIL tags

[trophyhunt]

they did reduce categories this year, in the OIL tags.  I disagree with setting a certain number aside for guys with 10 or more points.  Some of those high point guys may only apply for one unit, perhaps if they applied for 2,3, or 4 they would have drawn tags in the past.  I've drawn what I consider to be 4 premium tags in this state in 15 years of applying and of those I got 1 first choice, 1 third choice and 2 fourth choices.  Had I only put one choice down I would only have drawn one good hunt in 15 years.  that's what some guys do and then they ***** about never drawing anything.  I don't feel too sorry for those folks. 

I have been putting in for the two choices in quality,as much as I can and before the new system I was putting in for 3 of the 4 choices we had for elk. An example of what I was talking about earlier is, a guy I know drew the green river watershed elk hunt 2 years ago when they had 3 tags. The other two people with the elk tags had drawn with 1 and 4 points, he had 12.  I don't believe they should have been able to put in for it so soon mostly because how they do the drawings is f'd up. There is too many examples of people drawing with very little points when guys have been waiting a 1/4 of their life for some of these tags.  I had 14 points a couple years ago and didn't draw one of the 3 tags given out in the wenaha for elk muzzy, I'm not saying I should have been drawn. I'm saying someone that had close to my points or more should have been drawn before the people who did get drawn, they had 2,4,6 points. The way they draw is screwd, the odds that those 3 get drawn before any other of us with 10 or more points has got to be amazing. My point is the way they do the drawing doesn't make the point system work, if it worked you wouldn't see 3 tags go to people with 2,4 and 6 points when perhaps thousands of other numbers are going against their 4,16 and 36 names in the hat.  Got to go for now, will bitch later.

[bobcat]

It's all luck. It's just like if there were no points. People who put in for the first year might get drawn while someone who has been applying for 20 years doesn't. There's no way to fix that, other than going to a preference point system, but with that system you make it impossible for younger people to ever get drawn. So they might as well not even ever get started applying for permits.

The system was fine until they changed it last year. The only thing that could be done to improve it now, in my opinion, is to get rid of some of the unnecessary categories, such as antlerless moose, the disabled hunter moose and elk permits, youth, and over 65.

It's all in what you apply for. If you apply for a hunt that only has 1 permit, and 3000 applicants, don't expect to draw it even if you have 30 points. If that's all you ever apply for your whole life, don't expect to ever draw it. Because think about it. That would be odds of 1 in 3000, which means it would take a person, on average, THREE THOUSAND YEARS to draw that permit.

[Ridgerunner]

Well said bobcat. 

[Special T]

W elk hunter, I guess my comment isn't directed tward policy but rather how are you going to rspond to our decisions... for example if the WDFW had sat down 10 different hunters and said this is how we are going to Change our points system what are you going to do? They would likely find out that people with lots of points 7+are going to buy permit draws in every expanded catory because not they have lots of points in several catagories. Me i had 1-2 points so why would i compete for some tags when several other people got lots of "free" points? I don't think this has so much to do with "fairness" as it does raisiing money to achieve thier goals... If they raised a bunch of extra $$ and do so in the future then it was a good thing, so long as they use it for "Hunter acess" like they promised..