Draft state wolf plan revised; review process planned

[Kain]

if i understand this right the state says 1000 wolfs to have a sustained huntable population. 300 wolfs will kill and eat between 6,700 and 10,000 deer and elk a year. if 1000 wolfs are the goal that would be between 20,100 and 30,000 deer and elk. my math may be very wrong i hope I'm wrong. With 1000 wolfs it wouldn't be very long and there would be no prey and no hunting opportunity's. then we become the prey right. i hope someone with power has Little common seance.

please some one tell me I'm wrong or i read this wrong

Sounds close to me and if you count the numbers killed by cougars we are all screwed.

 http://wdfw.wa.gov/wlm/game/management/2009-2015/final_game_management_plan_2009-2015.pdf 

Cougars are effective and efficient predators and average about one deer
kill (or deer equivalent) every 10 days (Ackerman et al. 1986).
pg 91

According to the new cougar population numbers which are 2000-2500 cats that would be 73000-91250 deer or elk per year on top of what the wolves will kill.  No telling how many fawns are killed by bobcats, coyotes and bears.

[Glockster]

There are two threads on this board that are highly related in my humble opinion:

Here's my worst case crystal ball if we don't fight this BS with everything we got:

1) Wolves:  Once a recovery plan is passed into policy the anti's will float a voter initiative that aims to severely limit  big game hunting in "wolf recovery sensitive areas" (or I'm sure the dept will come up with some clever acronym).  My greatest fear is that the general dumb voting public will sign on to this in droves once the first tearjerker TV & internet spots hit.  Don't think the other side doesn't have the war chest to do it...."stars" give them millions to 'save' the whales, they will surely pony up to further "wolf recovery".

It will be a simple case to make:  Humans must not compete with wolves for food until they're "recovered".

2)  Watchable Wildlife Economic Impact Study:  The message: 'Hunters just aren't that much of an economic benefit to WA's economy compared to the vast sums that a new watchable wolf industry will bring.'  In simpler terms; hunting is a dying "sport" and just doesn't matter much.

I'm not much into conspiracy theories, but these two circumstances are lining up too nicely.

[Kain]

   Its not even hard to piece together anymore.  Despite cougar population numbers growing from 2003-2008 the WDFW decide to implement strict new cougar regulations.  None of it makes any sense unless you understand they want a hands off management and limited but very expensive hunting opportunities.

[Dave Workman]

'Glockster' has it pegged.

I simply can't use the word "Boolsheet" in my Examiner columns, but this is precisely what the WDFW and the USFWS are shoveling, and it's about waist deep at the moment.

Twenty five years ago, we put a couple of thousand angry sportsmen on the Capitol Steps. The state, under Booth Gardner, pretty much ignored the anger because Booth & Co had cut secret deals with the tribes and timber companies.

The state adopted 'Resource Allocation' to keep hunting groups split and at each other's throats.
The state adopted antler restrictions to reduce harvest and reduce opportunity (for everyone but tribes and predators, anyway)
The WDFW pretty much sat on the bench during the ugly and ill-advised campaign to ban hound hunting for cougars and bears (state agencies in Oregon and Idaho didn't take that CS approach)

Yet there are hunters in this state...and even on this forum...who think that restrictive management is just peachy because it cuts down on competition.

Well, you people are going to soon be competing with wolf packs.

Well, this Bud's for you: 

I don't believe the data on "watchable" wildlife. How the hell does USFWS and WDFW establish this economic impact? They don't sell licenses for watching wildlife.

Well, actually, they do: We all have gotten to watch lots of wildlife that would have been hanging in camp 25 years ago. I got to watch a 5-point bull elk trot right through my camp two years ago up on the LT Murray. I've gotten to watch 2-point muleys walk right past my stand on the Teanaway (and I've seen a few of them left in the woods to rot). Over on the "other forum," this is the popular sentiment:
  Shovel and 

[Dave Workman]

Good one Dave. Where in the heck does $1.5 Billion & 26K jobs come from wildlife watching? Oh I know, they pulled a number out of a hat. No really.

I sorta think they pulled that number out of somewhere else, but then reconsidered. It's too crowded in there for numbers, because they have their heads stuck up in there so far....

They are simply:

[bearpaw]

chapter 14 pg. 222 of draft plan

In the future, there could be revenue generated for WDFW if wolves recover to the point that they  are delisted, reclassified as a game species, and eventually become a hunted species. Revenue could  be generated through special permit application sales, auctions, and raffles. It is unknown how  much revenue would be generated from these sources. Such sales might be similar to those  obtained for bighorn sheep, moose, and mountain goats during most of the past decade an estimated $50,000 to $150,000 per year, or could be substantially higher.

pg 226 
As with the other economic outcomes discussed in this chapter, Washington’s ability to develop a  viable wolf-related tourism industry will depend on where and how many wolves eventually become  reestablished in the state, their behavior, and human behavior in response to them. However,  Washington appears to have potential for receiving at least modest economic benefits from wolf  watching for the following reasons

see... nothing but positives, wolves will generate revenue, increase tourism  and make you more attractive to the opposite sex. 

This makes no sense at all, what kind of idiot wrote that.

Government studies have indicated that 1 wolf eats 17 elk or 44 deer per year (page 73 wolf plan). At that rate the target population of 361 wolves in Washington could eat as many as 6,137 elk or 15,884 deer per year. Please explain how a few wolf tags can replace the revenue lost by removing that many deer and elk and all the business from hunters who like pursueing them. Ask a few towns in central Idaho what wolves have done for them. 

And this rubbish about wldlife watching bring in big dollars....
I have said this before, I have never seen a sign in Stevens County that says "Welcome Wildlife Watchers". 

But come hunting season you will see signs throughout the county that say "Welcome Hunters". Local businesses know exactly where the tourist dollars are coming from. 

[Dave Workman]

Bearpaw, does the term F-R-A-U-D ring a bell?

How about C-A-N-A-R-D?

Maybe this'll work;  L-I-E

[bearpaw]

Bearpaw, does the term F-R-A-U-D ring a bell?

How about C-A-N-A-R-D?

Maybe this'll work;  L-I-E

totally agree....

[Little Dave]

Good one Dave. Where in the heck does $1.5 Billion & 26K jobs come from wildlife watching? Oh I know, they pulled a number out of a hat. No really.

They write a survey like this:

Do you own binoculars?
Do you watch birds?
Do you go camping?
Do you hunt?
Do you fish?

The result is:

I respond yes to each question.  I own seven pairs of binoculars and have a few riflescopes and range finders.

My two sisters respond yes to each question except the one about hunting.
My brother likes to shoot but he doesn't hunt, so he answers the same way.

On the other side of the counter that's ten pairs of binoculars and other optical gear.  There's two bird books, and a whole lot of camping gear but that's generally just me and my oldest sister, the other two mooch.

Put all that on the table...
One of four that hunts.
Lots of optical gear purchased, camping gear.

Brilliant conclusion is:
More wildlife watchers than hunters, a really big industry.

Now go see the $2 Million WDFW Beebe Springs Wayside at Chelan Falls on a three day weekend.  Three cars there on Sunday afternoon, I saw one car in there on Saturday.  First time I've seen anyone in there at all.  Probably just dumping their Memorial Day weekend trash from camp.

Wenatchee World: Beebe Springs Now Has Loop Trail

[Dave Workman]

Well, boys'n girls, a guy on the Washington-Hunters forum (where I am not a member, but was tipped off to this) has decided I'm an idiot,and he offers this explanation:

"The more I read Dave's stuff the more I think he is off his rocker. He honestly doesn't understand how "wildlife viewing" brings in $1.5 billion? Hey Dave if you read this...two words...WHALE WATCHING. It's a huge market. HUGE. Plus the Skagit area eagle tours. Common sense Dave. Use it. The state makes a killing on taxes and business licenses from the tour companies.

And do I care if 6,700 extra deer are killed every year? No.

Cougars kill way more than that. All they have to do is bring back hound hunting (which will probably happen) and more cougars will be killed. Less cougars + more wolves = the same number of dead deer. Plus we get the benefit of having wolves back in nature which I am fine with.

Misinformed people making a big deal about nothing."

You can find this at: http://wash-hunters.com/general-discussion/washington-wolf-recovery-plan/


Yep, it's whale watching and eagle watching.  $1.5 billion worth, or close. 26,000 jobs related to whale charter and eagle watching on the Skagit. 

Let's say he's right about whale watching.  Since all these whale watching *censored*s aren't out there looking at elk and sheep and deer, we don't need to make sure there are so many elk, sheep and deer for them to watch at the feed stations by racheting down the regs and cutting opportunity, so I have a grand idea.  Let's expand the seasons and put a few more of them in the meat locker. 


Let's wish this guy good luck with wolves. He doesn't care about deer.

[Wenatcheejay]

Dave, that guy is a major *censored*bag.

[bobcat]

Hey Dave- for some reason your link to that other site doesn't work.        

[Dave Workman]

Hey Dave- for some reason your link to that other site doesn't work.        

Oh, crap, never mind

google Washington-hunters

[Wenatcheejay]

If you reduce the link to the parent site and then click on the forum for wolves thread it works. But I still say he is an ignoramus.

[Dave Workman]

If you guys want to "get the other side" of this argument in Cinemascope and Technicolor, and Dolby stereo...

click on this:
http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19324

It runs for 77 pages so far, and it's been going on since 2007

I have weighed in a few times to bring some balance, and so have a few other people.