Dangerous Precedent- DNR Gives Gate Keys To Tribes for Bear Hunting, What's Next

[huntnfmly]

Non tribal members need to pay a fee and be babysat by a tribal member?How bout tribal members needing a babysitter when they are off the rez?It makes no sense and that is why there is such a division between trbal and non tribal members.Non tribal members have to follow rules on the rez but tribal members dont need to follow the rules off the rez.Very frustarating                                                            

[pianoman9701]

Non tribal members need to pay a fee and be babysat by a tribal member?How bout tribal members needing a babysitter when they are off the rez?It makes no sense and that is why there is such a division between trbal and non tribal members.Non tribal members have to follow rules on the rez but tribal members dont need to follow the rules off the rez.Very frustarating                                                            

Really? It's like private land going on a reservation. Private landowners can hunt public land, but you can't hunt theirs without permission. As far as Native rights...that horse has been saddled, rode, killed, and kicked long after its death.

[huntnfmly]

I believe the tribes hunt on hancock land in the white river unit?And if they dont my bad.I am still learning

[tlbradford]

Well, we are getting closer on understanding eachother, but you are still misreading what I have stated, so a few clarifications are needed.

If I one day at a family gathering said in front of everybody that I think the white ethnic group are racist, biased and prejudice because a small group of whites are?  No, because that would definitely make me look very bad and hurt alot of feelings of my family members that I and them have come to accept and love as one another.

This is not what I am doing.  If the MAJORITY of whites were racist, then I would have to concede that point to you, and tell you that it isn't all of us, and that the minority is working to change the mindset of the larger, racist group. 

"You are an exception to the rule, unfortunately."

If the above statement was made to compliment then it should have read, "You are an exception to the rule, fortunately."  By removing the "UN" from this excerpt changes it from a negative to a positive.  an example-"There was a serious vehicle accident today, unfortunately people were hurt" drop the "UN" and it becomes, "There was a serious vehicle accident today, fortunately no people were hurt."

Since you want to get into a grammar lesson, then your statement that is highlighted means the same thing.  I meant it as a negative statement.  It is unfortunate that all tribal members do not think and act the way you do.  If they did, we wouldn't have near the problems we have today.

  Labeling (Racial Profiling) occurs everyday by everyone, myself included.  When I go into public or private environments I am always assessing the situations around me.  If I see some kid dressed up like a gang banger talking like a gangbanger then he must be a gangbanger.  If I see a crackhead looking and acting like one then they must be one.  If I see a gentleman dressed and acting professional then he must be professional. 

Labeling (Racial Profiling) is and will always occur, but when you get to know someone is when things change whether it's for the better or worst.

Labeling - Racial Profiling is perfectly acceptable to me.  We may go into a situation with preconceived notions of how a person thinks, acts, and what makes them tick.  Understanding their culture and background goes a long ways into understanding what their viewpoints might be, and how they were raised may give you insight into how their belief system has been established. 

I don't know you on a personal level nor do I know anything about you but my conclusions were you don't like "Indians" because of the reasons you listed and the on-going debate we're having.   

Just so we are clear I do not dislike tribal members.  I have a dislike for many of their actions.  This is no different than the strong dislike I have for the actions of some of my close friends.  I have a friend that has a newer truck and a truck payment, cell phones, goes golfing a couple times a week, etc.  Yet he feels the need to have the state pay for his family's health insurance.  I dislike that choice.  I don't hate anyone.  I hate inequality. 

  I have shared my personal information with you and other moderators in the hopes of creating a thread or something that this type of discussion could be moved there in the hopes of disspelling or addressing these types of issues without interferring with the main topic.

Nobody on this forum has any doubt that you are, unquestionably, a man of great character and fortitude.  I want to ask you something and would like your honest answer on this.  Do you take such great pains to give us your background information, to come on this forum and deal with the negative response to tribal members concerning fishing and hunting practices, and to try to inform us on how you aer unlike many of your brethren, because we are misinformed about the tribes, or to show us that there are individual tribal members that have different opinions and thoughts than the majority of their tribe?  Everything that I have read leads me to believe that you are trying to show the forum that you are an exception, and that you are trying to work to change the mindset inside the tribe.  Maybe that is incorrect, so please feel free to clarify that point.

   "I wanted to make sure my responses were on a public forum so everyone would understand my position.  I felt there were several points that needed to be addressed from your response.  I hope you can understand that."

Yet again we have something in common.  We keep this up then people are going to see a pattern here.  I have not tried to hide what I have to say and I have made the request to create another category in the community section for everybody to see but, with the best of intentions the decision was made by the powers that be, the topic was not warranted and to continue to provide my comments as they come.  I respect that decision because I'm not in a position of authority on this site and if I would like to continue to enjoy all this site has to offer then I'm going to play by the rules and guidelines and be an upstanding UNOFFICIAL representative of my people who is only speaking for hisself and providing his own opinion.

As a whole this site wants to avoid "tribal bashing".  We discussed this and felt that a forum would encourage negative threads, rather than encourage good discussion.  We would like to see you bring up topics and post them in the forums that you see fit, regarding tribal issues as they apply to hunting and fishing.  My initial comments about the tribes of this state, being a welfare nation, were unwarranted and not germane to the topic at hand.  I shouldn't have tried to defend them.  I apologize for that.  I do not apologize for accusing them of having their hand out for special benefits or income.  All special interest groups do that.  Until there is a fundamental change in how our government is run, this will always be the case, and that too is unfortunate.

Again, just from what I've read on here and what little you have shared about yourself I can see we have quite a bit in common.  Maybe, someday we would meet and possibly get to know eachother better and maybe become friends but, until differences are put aside I don't think it will happen anytime soon and that's unfortunate. 

We have debated and rebuttaled this pretty good and I think we can put it to rest and agree to disagree if you would like?  We have presented our cases and it's clear that neither one of us is going to back down or concede so, why don't we agree to a stalemate and wait for another opportunity and let this thread get back on track?

I would be proud to shake your and and know you, and debate these topics as friends.  We may be coming at issues from opposite sides of the table, and never agree on anything but to disagree, but that is just the way it is on many topics shared between friends.  Hell, probably 50% of the crap my wife and I discuss ends up that way.  I have found that letting a thread go where it may, makes it much more interesting than others.  This is a minority opinion, though when discussing it with the other mods.  They are more anal than I am and like things to stay on track. 

[bucklucky]

Hugs?? 

[tlbradford]

Hugs?? 

Only if PlateauNDN turns out to look like Shania Twain.      Otherwise I'm good with a handshake.

[Special T]

I almost wrote this yesterday... I was having a conversation with an Indian friend of mine a little while ago. He was talking about the reservation "Culture" and the rundown look of many places on a reservation.  His brother is so consumed with pushing back at the stereotype of being Indian, his place looks more like a county club house on a golf course than a normal residence...  That story got me thinking. I think the "Welfare" mentality is what is destructive, regardless of color. I know here in the Skagit valley there are plenty of white people places that look like a junk yard. Most trouble makers, of any stripe, do not share the American spirit of hard work and pride in what they do.
I think it is much harder quantify the ethics and morality of any given population. For example, if i went up river and went in to a rundown area with lots of crap in the yard and vehicles on blocks I would presume they are some dirtbag Meth heads... I have learned the hard way, that this is not necessarily the case.
I think the question by TLB  "Do you take such great pains to give us your background information, to come on this forum and deal with the negative response to tribal members concerning fishing and hunting practices, and to try to inform us on how you aer unlike many of your brethren, because we are misinformed about the tribes, or to show us that there are individual tribal members that have different opinions and thoughts than the majority of their tribe?"
Is an interesting one. I have family friends that are Yakima's that do not think so highly of their tribal members as a whole... They have tried hard to unteach their grand kids some of the bad habits of their parents. Trying instead to promote that there is usually no need to take more than an elk and a deer per hunter to get the family by with meat.
I always find it interesting listening, and talking with Indians. I think our SHARED struggle is how do we pass along our Pride and hard work ethic when we are really so well off.

[PlateauNDN]

The answer to your question TL is yes, I do make it a point to show that not all Tribal Members are alike.  As I have stated before if someone wishes to initiate change then they must first jump in the trenches and take it head on.  Now I don't mean start firing back toe-to-toe in a negative way as some of my fellow Tribesmen have done and other Tribal Members have done in the past. 

I mean exactly what has occured so far, a civil and unbiased debate providing factual answers and documentation to back-up what was referenced.  I followed this forum during Dec. and Jan. and witnessed first hand what was occuring between Tribal and Non-Tribal hunters in regards to the Nile Point incident and the Wenas incident and various other incidents leading up to those and it just irked me when I would read the negative comments about Tribal Members as a whole.

To throw fuel on the fire Tribal Members would respond in a negative way and continue to fan the fire until it was out of control.  I wouldn't say I go through great pains to share my background but when somebody asks me for information why not answer them and give them information?  What do I have to hide?  Also, if somebody wants to lump me in with the rest of the bad apples then I'm going to disspell that notion really quick.

T, I, just like your friends brother am consumed with pushing the stereotype back.  I don't like my place of residence to look all trashy and unkept either.  You come to my place you're going to see a well kept home.  I have 2 Marine Flags hanging in my living room and a Marine wind sock on my porch.  My truck can get a little dirty from my kids but I keep decent as much as possible and that has a big "Semper Fi" bumper sticker in the back.

We share a common interest and that is turning things around that are being done negatively by Tribal Members.  If the law has been broken then justice needs to be served if not, then we are just leading ourselves into self destruction.

I find myself at times frustrated with my fellow Tribesmen because of the blatant disregard of our Treaty rights.  I also do believe some abuse this privilege and examples need to be made.  But, until somebody is elected on our Council believes this and has the political back-up to match then, I'm afraid it will not be addressed until it is to late.

I have to agree with you TL on the hugging aspect.  Unless you look like Christina Aguilera it's not going to happen.  Although Shania Twain is beatiful, or maybe the beautiful lead girl off of Pure Country 2!   Until next time I leave you with a hand shake or this icon.. either one?

[True Sportsman]

Good discussion guys. Its nice to see different people intelligently debating.

I thought for sure by the last page there would be some good name calling, but no...

[Coastal_native]

To throw fuel on the fire Tribal Members would respond in a negative way and continue to fan the fire until it was out of control.

Interesting...I don't think there were any other natives besides me and "bigdogg" posting during the time period you're referring to.  I don't know if I'd consider anything we said to be negative.  You can use our names next time in place of "Tribal Members"... there's only half a dozen of us.  You're not gonna hurt my feelings.   

I don't think you and I are in 100% agreement on this topic, but I've appreciated hearing your perspective.  I think I'm a lumper and you're a splitter.  I'd rather see tribal poaching and wasting fall under the categories of poaching and wasting, rather than under the category of "tribal hunting issues".  I think the "tribal hunting issue" is strictly a jurisdictional debate.  I wouldn't necessarily support the idea of a "tribal hunting" section because it is verging on separatism.  I think we all come here as hunters. 

I would much rather hear you tell your story about how hunting is still of cultural significance to your tribe...and that there is a valid reason why your tribe has a unique view of regulating hunting within its jurisdiction that allows it's members to retain that cultural significance...that being the main difference between the management styles of the two different jurisdictions (state vs. tribe).

[bucklucky]

I like the way you think Coastal!! 

[buckhorn2]

Yea it;s nice to have a discussion without name calling it is what it is and like he said we are all hunters.

[bearpaw]

Yea it;s nice to have a discussion without name calling it is what it is and like he said we are all hunters.

  +3


Has anyone heard anything else on the issue of the gate keys?

[pianoman9701]

Yea it;s nice to have a discussion without name calling it is what it is and like he said we are all hunters.

  +3


Has anyone heard anything else on the issue of the gate keys?

+4

[Gringo31]

I've liked the debate and back and forth on this thread.  I think the answer to all of this is not to fight back and forth about fair or unfair of what laws are currently in the books or which side does a better job of following those laws.  (All laws are broken)..... back to my point, the answer is to actually work together with both sides having the same long term sustainable goals with conservation, regulation and enforcement in mind.

I think that if this could happen, it would make a world of difference.  This will never happen if one side says tough crap, we can do what we want, deal with it...oh, and thumb your nose while at it.   IF we could walk the walk of long term goals I think we would see eye to eye on these issues.

I appreciate those from the tribe speaking from their experience and having the balls to openly discuss