Why is it spike only for Eastside Elk

[MDGrand]

This is a dumb question, but it has been soooo long since I even thought about this one.. but what is the management philosophy behind having the Eastside be spike only?

[NWBREW]

Unsure of what the thinking is behind that.  It is not all spike only. There are areas that are any Bull.

[GoldTip]

Because 3 point or better was being tried with Mule deer and the F&G couldn't come up with anything else.

[Todd_ID]

Loaded question.

Short answer is too many hunters in the state and not near enough elk.  The only way to write up a rule is by antler size or lack thereof, so we see spike only or spike and antlerless and now some true spike only areas.  There'd be many more bulls if the state went to 7+ points on one side being the minimum for the general season, but the hunters would get discouraged and quit buying licenses because the elk that get that big are old and smart and harder to kill.  Can't cut the revenue stream, so you hope that enough spikes make it to be big bulls to keep the hunters buying the special permits.

[MDGrand]

For crying out loud... really? All the more reason I am in favor of changing our system to a draw system more similar to MT.

From a biology standpoint though it cant make any sense.. the same old lucky bull that made it past bieng a spike pretty much has his genes and his genes alone rule the heard as he probably kicks the but of MOST other spikes.

.. interesting.. 

[str8meat]

the last meeting i was at the dept. was tryin to get 12 cows to every herd bull. wich would be a good ratio. so in order to protect the future of the herd, a spike bull general seaon was implicated. fortunately for the herd bulls the general season many are protected from hunters as there isnt alot of special permits. the downside is that the tribal memebers will continue to harvest bulls whenever they want to an seems like wherever also. to me it doesnt make sense to harvest a mature bull in dec., jan. or feb. when they are at their leanest and struggling to survive. give me a nice fat calf  thats eating.  many neighboring states do and do not have the same theory to their management. smetims ya just have to play the cards delt

[PlateauNDN]

the last meeting i was at the dept. was tryin to get 12 cows to every herd bull. wich would be a good ratio. so in order to protect the future of the herd, a spike bull general seaon was implicated. fortunately for the herd bulls the general season many are protected from hunters as there isnt alot of special permits. the downside is that the tribal memebers will continue to harvest bulls whenever they want to an seems like wherever also. to me it doesnt make sense to harvest a mature bull in dec., jan. or feb. when they are at their leanest and struggling to survive. give me a nice fat calf  thats eating.  many neighboring states do and do not have the same theory to their management. smetims ya just have to play the cards delt

I agree with you on this one and it would be beneficial for everybody if regulations were alot more stricter and actually enforced.

[newred]

I thought the idea was to kill all the genetically deficient spike bulls, while letting the bigger bodied branch antlered bulls impregnate as many of the heard as possible, leading to more bigger bodied branch antler bulls in the future. Is this not correct?

[6x6in6]

I thought the idea was to kill all the genetically deficient spike bulls, while letting the bigger bodied branch antlered bulls impregnate as many of the heard as possible, leading to more bigger bodied branch antler bulls in the future. Is this not correct?

No.
How do you know if one of them harvested spikes didn't have big daddy's gene's in him and in a couple years would be spreading his seed?  We don't.
It was all about escapement for branched and the few spikes that survive to keep the cycle going.  And, of course, the $ factor of not losing revenue by going to a draw only system.
Stupid idea!!!

[bobcat]

I thought the idea was to kill all the genetically deficient spike bulls, while letting the bigger bodied branch antlered bulls impregnate as many of the heard as possible, leading to more bigger bodied branch antler bulls in the future. Is this not correct?

 
No, I don't think that has anything to do with it. For one thing, how do you know the spikes are "genetically deficient?" Most spike bull elk are just yearlings and very well could be 6x6 bulls in their 3rd or 4th years. The spike only season is so that the WDFW can continue to sell over-the-counter elk tags, with no limit on the number sold, and still maintain a healthy bull/cow ratio. The younger spike elk are more numerous and therefore, more expendable.

[rtspring]

When this rule came out our hunting camp almost gave up elk hunting. But it has greatly improved the herd in the area I hunt. Before the spike only rule we had a bunch of raghorns. Now we have some of the best elk hunting in the state. There is no way to please everyone.  I don't mind shooting spikes, they really aren't that hard to find.

And for those wishing we would go to a draw to hunt type deal, I am totally 100 percent against that crap. I want to hunt each and every year and have lots of money invested in equipment and such to go hunting. So if i could not hunt one year I would probably just give it up and sell all my hunting stuff. Our state is not the best but it really ain't that bad neither.

[MDGrand]

When this rule came out our hunting camp almost gave up elk hunting. But it has greatly improved the herd in the area I hunt. Before the spike only rule we had a bunch of raghorns. Now we have some of the best elk hunting in the state. There is no way to please everyone.  I don't mind shooting spikes, they really aren't that hard to find.

And for those wishing we would go to a draw to hunt type deal, I am totally 100 percent against that crap. I want to hunt each and every year and have lots of money invested in equipment and such to go hunting. So if i could not hunt one year I would probably just give it up and sell all my hunting stuff. Our state is not the best but it really ain't that bad neither.

With all due respect, I totally hear what you are saying, however, I do not think you understand how much MORE hunting you could do with the proper draw system. WA is WAAAAAY behind other western states when it comes to how they issue their tags.

For example.. in MT, you must be in for a draw every year.. more than likely as a resident, you will get your tag.. odds are in the 80s I think for most popular elk areas and near 100% in popular deer areas, such as the Missouri Breaks... FOR RESIDENTS. For NON residents.. the odds are WAY Lower.

The benefits are:

You actually get a season to hunt, months, not just weeks.


AND.. more importantly...

It keeps the "night before" hunters from going to the store and buying their tag and a cooler full of beer to come join you on the hill.

Besides....

What would happen if you did not get your elk tag that year.. BUT instead got several months to go after that Trophy Mule Deer you have been after?

I would take that in a heart beat because as you were saying.. you want the hunting time.. with a PROPER draw system.. we would get MORE of that and perhaps this "spike only" crap would go away too.

 

[Tbar]

The state has to do it's best to prevent harvest with the number of hunters and a general season. APR's are just a management tool. Could it be better? Absolutely!! It's the only hand we are dealt so it's how we play it, I put high value in hunting with close friends and family. I also may not object to permit only. Decisions are so often made by non hunters and our input carries little value (it seems)....

[CedarPants]

When this rule came out our hunting camp almost gave up elk hunting. But it has greatly improved the herd in the area I hunt. Before the spike only rule we had a bunch of raghorns. Now we have some of the best elk hunting in the state. There is no way to please everyone.  I don't mind shooting spikes, they really aren't that hard to find.

And for those wishing we would go to a draw to hunt type deal, I am totally 100 percent against that crap. I want to hunt each and every year and have lots of money invested in equipment and such to go hunting. So if i could not hunt one year I would probably just give it up and sell all my hunting stuff. Our state is not the best but it really ain't that bad neither.

Everyone has a lot of money invested in equipment and such to go hunting.  Those of us that don't have the option of hunting branch antlered bulls didn't just give up and sell all of our hunting stuff though, just like the majority of us wouldn't just quit hunting if we had to skip a year here and there. I'm sure plenty of opportunity would exist to still be in camp every year with friends and family, which is 99% of the fun.  If your only goal is to kill an animal year in year out, then yes you are absoloutely correct in that the state can't please everyone.

[bucklucky]

From one Biologist I know of, he said that 1st year spike are actually not genetically superior, its the first year bulls that are forks , three's and 4x4s are the best of the genetically sound bulls. . If you can compare a 1st year spike to a first year 3x3 you would understand. I have a first year bull in the shop that is a spike age bull but has a 3x3 rack. The first bull I killed was a spike aged bull but is a 4x4. Thats why it does not hurt the herds to have a spike only season. The bulls that you see  that are small 6x6's (compact heavy short tined bulls or "poor genetics" ) but old bulls are the ones that were more than likely first year spikes. Spike only helps weed out the genetically inferior animals there fore making room for the more superior qualitied bulls.