121,117 pressure

[superdown]

How much more or less pressure do you think these two units will get now that the 4pt. min has been implemented? 

[Alan K]

I can't imagine it would be changing much, I mean how many people would change their mind if they couldn't shoot every 1.5 y/o they saw? Half the 1.5 y/o's will still probably start out at a tiny 3 point with an eye guard anyways. 

[Alan K]

And I'm admittedly not much of a whitetail guy, just for the last few years while I was in Idaho, but from what I picked up about whitetail bucks and their point progression this rule change won't change much of anything aside from save a few 1.5 y/o's and some bucks with horrible genetics.

[CedarPants]

The Blues went to spike only some time ago, but it looks like Woodstock down there during modern still

[superdown]

The Blues went to spike only some time ago, but it looks like Woodstock down there during modern still

  are you talking about elk?

[CedarPants]

The Blues went to spike only some time ago, but it looks like Woodstock down there during modern still

  are you talking about elk?

Correct.  More just meant as a way of saying I don't think point restrictions lead to drastic reductions in hunting pressure, no matter the species

[Pathfinder101]

I think it will lessen the pressure a little bit, but you are going to have a major poaching problem for the first few years.  How many *censored*s will not read the regs, go to their old tried-and-true hunting spot and blast the first forkhorn they see..?
I am thinking about hunting there opening weekend.  Not for deer, but for 10 bonus points...   I am just going to drive around and write down License plate #s and try to match up the idiots with the rigs...

[CedarPants]

I think it will lessen the pressure a little bit, but you are going to have a major poaching problem for the first few years.  How many *censored*s will not read the regs, go to their old tried-and-true hunting spot and blast the first forkhorn they see..?
I am thinking about hunting there opening weekend.  Not for deer, but for 10 bonus points...   I am just going to drive around and write down License plate #s and try to match up the idiots with the rigs...

 

Wanna ride together and share gas?  Sounds like we have the same line of thought and plan 

[superdown]

do you guy's think that the point restriction will eventually increase the over all number of animals doe and bucks?

[Pathfinder101]

do you guy's think that the point restriction will eventually increase the over all number of animals doe and bucks?

No, but it will increase the number of bucks and give a higher buck to doe ratio.  I think that the overall (buck and doe) carrying capacity of the units are determined more by the harshness of the winter than by hunter harvest.

[bearpaw]

By far, mother nature's hard winters make the greatest impact and we had two bad ones in a row. The goal with the point restriction in conjunction with an almost elimination of doe permits, is to help recover the herd.

Our currently higher than normal coyote, cougar, and bear numbers are an additional impact, there is little control over these factors because of current state politics and a relunctant WDFW.

By cutting human harvest on does and bucks, the hope is to recover the herd faster than if no action was taken to reduce human harvest. So I think we will see the herd recover faster than if no action was taken on reducing human opportunity.

[piledup]

Maybe not much of a difference for pressure wise but maybe hunter success might see a drop in those two units.

[buckcanyonlodge]

I have talked with Dana Base the game biologist for 121. He is VERY much against the 4 point restriction. So is Jim Nelson the head of deer management in the Olympia office. There is NO scientific base for changing to a 4 point restriction. The biologists agree it will do nothing to improve the state of the deer herd in our area. Ask a farmer, if he wants to increase his herd he does not kill or sell his cows. Letting the bull grow older does nothing to increase his herd. It was a political decision by the commissioners to ignore the biologists. There is one particular commissioner that is a trophy hunter and has pushed for this for all his term. The only thing this has done is to restrict the hunting opportunities for youth, disabled, and senior hunters in these units. Hunting rights are for all hunters, not just trophy hunters. Trophy hunting  is a personal choice, NOT a management tool. If it really helped bring back the deer population, I would be all for it. It does not. I personally do not shoot small bucks but I do not try to force my ideals on everyone else. This used to be an area someone could bring their kids and have a fairly good chance of success. We need our youth to carry on our hunting tradition. I  think the hunter numbers will be down as well as the success. Remember we are ALL in this together. I live in the heart of 121 and know of the process that got this regulation in place. We will not be silent at any more commissioners meetings!

[baldopepper]

I could'nt agree more !!!!  I  hunted most of my life in Utah and have watched the "zeal" for trophy units turn the deer hunt down there into a mess.  There are so many special units and quality hunts (and it's getting worse next year) that the old days of going on a family hunt are almost over.  Places that were open to the public have been leased out and closed off to the general public in an attempt to grow bigger trophys and virtually every biologist there will tell you that it has really nothing to do with game management.  Unit 121 has seen a decline in numbers over the past 10 years but maybe (lol) the 1000 anterless permits they've been giving out had something to do with that?  I hate to see Washington starting down the 4 point or better road because it just a matter of time until you'll see many of your favorite spots turn into "quality units" with limited permits and horn restrictions. I only say it half kiddingly when I suggest that you'll soon have to take the regulations to a lawyer to figure when, where and how you can hunt. guess I would'nt mind as much if I thought all of the new regulations were really put in place in the best interest of game management rather than "money" managment.

[muleyguy]

the 4 pt rule is actually going to do just the opposite of creating a trophy area;  its going to be detrimental to the trophy quality of these units;  these units receive tremendous amounts of hunting pressure;  now that you cannot shoot anything less then 4 pts,  ALL of this hunting pressure is now going to be focused on the mature bucks; 

A two week rut hunt with all the hunters focused on 4 pt or better bucks?   hmmm..........anybody have a guess what age class of bucks is going to get hammered???

we can all check back here in a year when the data comes out, but, my guess is that the harvest of 5 pt or better bucks out of these units at least DOUBLES this year;

the real problem will come in the 2013 hunting season when the full effect of two years of rut hunts with all the hunters focused on the older bucks. 

sure, overall deer harvest will be down tremendously, but, you are going to essentially wipe out the older bucks populations in the next two years; 

there won't be any more recruitment of bucks into the 4.5 yr old age class then there was before the 4 pt rule;  but, in the next two years there will be permanent damage down to the older age classes.

The average public got sold a bill of goods on this.......the population of older age class bucks on public ground will get hammered with the amount of hunting pressure this unit receives along with the two week rut hunt. 

The people that pushed this are private land owners and outfitters;  they will not see these devastating effects because the hunting pressure is highly regulated on these lands.

Not only will this rule not help the deer herds, it will hurt them because you are protecting the youngest age class instead of the older age classes;  over a few years the dominant age class will become 1.5 yr old bucks;  they will then do the majority of the breeding;  mother nature sets it up for older age class bucks to do the breeding for a reason......lots of data to show that does bred by older bucks have more fit fawns;  so, now we are going to have the equivalent of a bunch of 12 yr old boys doing the breeding.

The first casualty of the 4 pt rule will be the dramatic shortening or elimination of the two week rut hunt by 2013 as it becomes obvious the mature bucks are getting hammered. 

[huntnnw]

I think it will even out overall..u will get alot of meat hunters who wont hunt..but trophy hunters may specifically target the units in the years to come

[PA BEN]

I have talked with Dana Base the game biologist for 121. He is VERY much against the 4 point restriction. So is Jim Nelson the head of deer management in the Olympia office. There is NO scientific base for changing to a 4 point restriction. The biologists agree it will do nothing to improve the state of the deer herd in our area. Ask a farmer, if he wants to increase his herd he does not kill or sell his cows. Letting the bull grow older does nothing to increase his herd. It was a political decision by the commissioners to ignore the biologists. There is one particular commissioner that is a trophy hunter and has pushed for this for all his term. The only thing this has done is to restrict the hunting opportunities for youth, disabled, and senior hunters in these units. Hunting rights are for all hunters, not just trophy hunters. Trophy hunting  is a personal choice, NOT a management tool. If it really helped bring back the deer population, I would be all for it. It does not. I personally do not shoot small bucks but I do not try to force my ideals on everyone else. This used to be an area someone could bring their kids and have a fairly good chance of success. We need our youth to carry on our hunting tradition. I  think the hunter numbers will be down as well as the success. Remember we are ALL in this together. I live in the heart of 121 and know of the process that got this regulation in place. We will not be silent at any more commissioners meetings!

[boneaddict]

Some really good points being made and some things to dwell on.  I believe it works for muledeer(three point), always have been a proponent of it.  Not really seeing the need for it for whitetail.  I kinda think its dumb.  Certainly good to hear what others are thinking.

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I have talked with Dana Base the game biologist for 121. He is VERY much against the 4 point restriction. So is Jim Nelson the head of deer management in the Olympia office. There is NO scientific base for changing to a 4 point restriction. The biologists agree it will do nothing to improve the state of the deer herd in our area. Ask a farmer, if he wants to increase his herd he does not kill or sell his cows. Letting the bull grow older does nothing to increase his herd. It was a political decision by the commissioners to ignore the biologists. There is one particular commissioner that is a trophy hunter and has pushed for this for all his term. The only thing this has done is to restrict the hunting opportunities for youth, disabled, and senior hunters in these units. Hunting rights are for all hunters, not just trophy hunters. Trophy hunting  is a personal choice, NOT a management tool. If it really helped bring back the deer population, I would be all for it. It does not. I personally do not shoot small bucks but I do not try to force my ideals on everyone else. This used to be an area someone could bring their kids and have a fairly good chance of success. We need our youth to carry on our hunting tradition. I  think the hunter numbers will be down as well as the success. Remember we are ALL in this together. I live in the heart of 121 and know of the process that got this regulation in place. We will not be silent at any more commissioners meetings!

I can agree with you on not pushing our ideals on everyone else. But unlike our biologist who are not whitetail experts most whitetail specific biologist would disagree with them. Albeit a point restriction is not the best way to get there...it is better than nothing and probably the easiest thing to implement en masse.

You are making the common misconception that QDM is trophy management and that is not the case. The added benefit of QDM is often more trophies simply because most herds are out of whack when it comes to buck/doe ratios and age structure but that is not the specific purpose.

The restricted doe harvest will increase the population. The point restriction will help bring/keep the buck/doe ratio in balance.

Has Dana Base or Jim Nelson published any research on whitetail management? I checked a scholarly database and found nothing to note that they are whitetail management experts or that would show they have any foundation to say QDM (which is made up of some of the best minds in whitetail management) has no scientific basis.

[Jburke]

the 4 pt rule is actually going to do just the opposite of creating a trophy area;  its going to be detrimental to the trophy quality of these units;  these units receive tremendous amounts of hunting pressure;  now that you cannot shoot anything less then 4 pts,  ALL of this hunting pressure is now going to be focused on the mature bucks; 

A two week rut hunt with all the hunters focused on 4 pt or better bucks?   hmmm..........anybody have a guess what age class of bucks is going to get hammered???

we can all check back here in a year when the data comes out, but, my guess is that the harvest of 5 pt or better bucks out of these units at least DOUBLES this year;

the real problem will come in the 2013 hunting season when the full effect of two years of rut hunts with all the hunters focused on the older bucks. 

sure, overall deer harvest will be down tremendously, but, you are going to essentially wipe out the older bucks populations in the next two years; 

there won't be any more recruitment of bucks into the 4.5 yr old age class then there was before the 4 pt rule;  but, in the next two years there will be permanent damage down to the older age classes.

The average public got sold a bill of goods on this.......the population of older age class bucks on public ground will get hammered with the amount of hunting pressure this unit receives along with the two week rut hunt. 

The people that pushed this are private land owners and outfitters;  they will not see these devastating effects because the hunting pressure is highly regulated on these lands.

Not only will this rule not help the deer herds, it will hurt them because you are protecting the youngest age class instead of the older age classes;  over a few years the dominant age class will become 1.5 yr old bucks;  they will then do the majority of the breeding;  mother nature sets it up for older age class bucks to do the breeding for a reason......lots of data to show that does bred by older bucks have more fit fawns;  so, now we are going to have the equivalent of a bunch of 12 yr old boys doing the breeding.

The first casualty of the 4 pt rule will be the dramatic shortening or elimination of the two week rut hunt by 2013 as it becomes obvious the mature bucks are getting hammered.

While I'm not a fan of the 4 pt min, I disagree with your guess on the harvest of older bucks 100%.  I think you are dead wrong there.  It may go up a little but I don't think it will even come close to doubling.  I don't even think the average hunter even sees a 5 pt or better buck each year, let alone has any kind of shot opportunity.  Most hunter's don't go far from roads still, and I can count the number of 5 pt or better bucks on one hand that I've seen from a road.  It's not nearly as easy to find a 5 pt as it is to shoot a spike crossing the road in front of you.  Most people just simply don't put in enough effort to trophy hunt.   

[cem3434]

the 4 pt rule is actually going to do just the opposite of creating a trophy area;  its going to be detrimental to the trophy quality of these units;  these units receive tremendous amounts of hunting pressure;  now that you cannot shoot anything less then 4 pts,  ALL of this hunting pressure is now going to be focused on the mature bucks; 

A two week rut hunt with all the hunters focused on 4 pt or better bucks?   hmmm..........anybody have a guess what age class of bucks is going to get hammered???

we can all check back here in a year when the data comes out, but, my guess is that the harvest of 5 pt or better bucks out of these units at least DOUBLES this year;

the real problem will come in the 2013 hunting season when the full effect of two years of rut hunts with all the hunters focused on the older bucks. 

sure, overall deer harvest will be down tremendously, but, you are going to essentially wipe out the older bucks populations in the next two years; 

there won't be any more recruitment of bucks into the 4.5 yr old age class then there was before the 4 pt rule;  but, in the next two years there will be permanent damage down to the older age classes.

The average public got sold a bill of goods on this.......the population of older age class bucks on public ground will get hammered with the amount of hunting pressure this unit receives along with the two week rut hunt. 

The people that pushed this are private land owners and outfitters;  they will not see these devastating effects because the hunting pressure is highly regulated on these lands.

Not only will this rule not help the deer herds, it will hurt them because you are protecting the youngest age class instead of the older age classes;  over a few years the dominant age class will become 1.5 yr old bucks;  they will then do the majority of the breeding;  mother nature sets it up for older age class bucks to do the breeding for a reason......lots of data to show that does bred by older bucks have more fit fawns;  so, now we are going to have the equivalent of a bunch of 12 yr old boys doing the breeding.

The first casualty of the 4 pt rule will be the dramatic shortening or elimination of the two week rut hunt by 2013 as it becomes obvious the mature bucks are getting hammered.

While I'm not a fan of the 4 pt min, I disagree with your guess on the harvest of older bucks 100%.  I think you are dead wrong there.  It may go up a little but I don't think it will even come close to doubling.  I don't even think the average hunter even sees a 5 pt or better buck each year, let alone has any kind of shot opportunity.  Most hunter's don't go far from roads still, and I can count the number of 5 pt or better bucks on one hand that I've seen from a road.  It's not nearly as easy to find a 5 pt as it is to shoot a spike crossing the road in front of you.  Most people just simply don't put in enough effort to trophy hunt.   

 
My guess is that initially it will go up slightly, but even out over the next couple of years.  Don't think all of the young bucks don't take note of the older bucks getting taken out.  Eventually, the young dumb bucks become the smart old bucks and learn to be nocturnal in order to survive.

I think this is a good move and will benefit the herd, not hinder it like some of you have suggested. 

[boneaddict]

Most people just simply don't put in enough effort to trophy hunt.

 

[huntnnw]

Couldn't agree more...Lazy ...the opposition is from people who shoot the first thing they see from the road

[colockumelk]

@Muleyguy  are your statements based on facts or studies?  Or are they just your opinion?  I  disagree with your statements.  I don't disagree because I pretend to be some sort of whitetail guru or expert.  In fact I'm the opposite of an expert.  But....  I currently live back east and I have been reading up on Whitetail QDM.  And back east these people take their Whitetail managment seriously.  Like Alabama vs Auburn seriously.  Unlike in WA where all the wildlife bios are paid by the state,  out East there are private groups who pay bios ALOT of money to figure out the best way to make a healthy deer herd.  And every single study that I have read, heard about or talked to the locals about says that the 4pt minimum will work.  Everything I've seen proves your statements wrong. 

The only proof I can give is this.  About 5 years ago most of the state of Alabama went to a QDM type of season.  You are allowed to harvest 3 bucks.  2 of them must be 3pt min and 1 of them must be 4pt min.  From talking to the locals and the local game wardens the quality of hunting and number of bucks has skyrocketed. 

@buckcanyonlodge I agree with DBHAWTHORNE as well.  Most of the whitetail experts are from the mid-west and the south.  And they all disagree with the two people you listed.  I also looked and didn't see that they had done any studies on the matter.   

Again I'm not an expert but I've read some stuff by experts and talked to experts that say QDM works.  I've also seen the effects of QDM.  If people don't like the change they can hunt somewhere else.  I don't like spike only for elk.  Which is why as soon as I draw a tag I'm gonna hunt elk on the west side.  I didn't like hunting with other people so now I hunt in the wilderness.  Moving to a new area is not a bigt deal.  The nice thing about WA is they have so many different types and places to hunt.  They almost have a type of hunting for everyone.  If you don't like how one place is because it doesn't fit yoru style of hunting.  Its simple go to a place that fits yourstyle.  Do you want trophy or any deer.  Do you want lots of roads or a wilderness area.  Sage brush or the jungle.  Bow, ML, Rifle, late or early season.  Roosevelt, Rocky Mountain, Blacktail, Muley, Whitetail etc.  So many different types of hunting.  I don't think making two GMU's a QDM unit is a big deal.   

[PA BEN]

The pisser is this. The locals who live and have hunted there for generations now have to put up w/hunting 4 point. I know a lot of families who hunt for the meat, including myself when I live there with my 5 kids. O, I guess if they don't like it, they can spend lots on gas and not hunt there own land.

[cem3434]

The pisser is this. The locals who live and have hunted there for generations now have to put up w/hunting 4 point. I know a lot of families who hunt for the meat, including myself when I live there with my 5 kids. O, I guess if they don't like it, they can spend lots on gas and not hunt there own land.

I have a couple of friends that live right in the middle of 117. They are excited at the potential of raising the quality deer over the next several years. They too depend on meat, but they have never had a problem shooting mature bucks.

If you are willing to hunt, filling the freezer shouldnt be a problem still.  There is no need for the locals to drive anywhere, rather I would suggest parking the truck and getting in the woods........cause thats where the mature deer are!

[baldopepper]

Pa Ben-I think that big game hunting is slowly (not so slowly in some area) evolving into a sport where the monied  trophy hunters are calling the shots. "Quality" hunts in the western states are their answer to the leased/club hunting that is prevalant in the eastern and southern states.  We still have vast expanses of public land that they can't control any other way than to influence game managers to proclaim vast expanses as "quality" areas.  We are already seeing lottery hunts on many species where most of us simply can't afford to participate and it's astounding what some people are able to pay to win these lotteries ( I personally know a hunter who buys into several ram lotteries with 100-200 tickets at $20.00/ticket) Personally, I think qulaity hunts will eventually evolve into lottery type hunts.  there's just to much money to be made. (I know several people invovlved , as an example, with the hunter and guide involved in the "spidey bull" elk hunt in Utah and they estimate that hunt cost the hunter in excess of $500,00)  When you see quality elk hunts going for $25,000 and deer hunts for $10,000 or more, it's easy to understand why there are people who want more quality animals made available. Is it sound game management?-bioligists I know (mostly in Utah which is refining the art of "quality hunts)-seems to be split on their opinions, but all agree that bigger animals "sale" for a lot more. there are many hunters out there who really don't want more "meat" hunters out there, they could care less that hunting used to be one of the sports where the "common" guy could get out with his family and enjoy the outdoors and maybe put a steak or two in the freezer.  they want that big rack on the wall and talk about how many points it scored and could care less about how many lbs. it put in the freezer. Just my opinion, of course, but I'm not sure I like the direction I see big game hunting going.

[PA BEN]

One thing I see is a lot of kids will miss out on there first deer because of this law.

[doyourtime89]

   That is kind of where I am at with this.  The kids...I have hunted and taken my fair share of animals.  But my son started hunting a few years ago, he had taken a couple deer.  We live on the west side and over the past couple years have been driving over putting in time and effort trying to get to know that area because we have been told a lot better chance over there and that is what I want for my son and now this year my wife will hunt for her first year.  But this new rule has me looking else where now.  I am not sure if its time to start all over or what.  I really do like that area, but I still haven't learned it enough to be really confident yet.  That does take a few years.

[Jburke]

   That is kind of where I am at with this.  The kids...I have hunted and taken my fair share of animals.  But my son started hunting a few years ago, he had taken a couple deer.  We live on the west side and over the past couple years have been driving over putting in time and effort trying to get to know that area because we have been told a lot better chance over there and that is what I want for my son and now this year my wife will hunt for her first year.  But this new rule has me looking else where now.  I am not sure if its time to start all over or what.  I really do like that area, but I still haven't learned it enough to be really confident yet.  That does take a few years.

It really does take time.  Iv'e been hunting those areas for 6 years or so and am still not confident that I can go out and shoot mature deer consistently.  Sure I have found good areas and seen some nice deer.  But not with enough consistency to be confident yet.

[doyourtime89]

You are exactly right, it takes years and years to really get to learn and know an area to be comfortable in that area and with this new rule I am not sure if I should keep going back.  I am really in it now for my wife and son to get some chances.

[Jburke]

You are exactly right, it takes years and years to really get to learn and know an area to be comfortable in that area and with this new rule I am not sure if I should keep going back.  I am really in it now for my wife and son to get some chances.

One thing I would suggest is to talk to land owners and farmers.  That can help you out in learning the areas because most of the farmers will tell you just about anything you need to know.  There are a lot of farms between Colville and Spokane and you might be surprised at how many would allow hunting if you just stop and ask.  Worth a shot at least.   

[PA BEN]

I lived there and hunted whitetail in 121 each year since age 14, killed some nice deer and shot spikes and forked horns the last days of the season. I always had a tag when late buck started Thanksgiving day, unless I shot a nice one in the early season. So, back in the day to this day, those units have had nice bucks. You had to hunt them back then and have to hunt them today. If people think a big buck was standing behind every tree back in the day there dead wrong. 

[dscubame]

Pressure will be considerably less now that I am spending the $$ on out of state Idaho Panhandle Elk tags and not going to hunt the 121 this year.

[cem3434]

I lived there and hunted whitetail in 121 each year since age 14, killed some nice deer and shot spikes and forked horns the last days of the season. I always had a tag when late buck started Thanksgiving day, unless I shot a nice one in the early season. So, back in the day to this day, those units have had nice bucks. You had to hunt them back then and have to hunt them today. If people think a big buck was standing behind every tree back in the day there dead wrong.

:
yeah:

[PA BEN]

YEAH

[buckfvr]

At 1 1/2 years old, a whitetail buck can sport 4 points on one side.  By what user groups definition, is a year and a half old buck a trophy??  4pt minimum will not hurt the herds, but may hurt  a few businesses.   

There will be fewer people travel to hunt 121 and 117.  Ive heard of many who will opt for other units.  The best modern hunt in the state is right here late modern hunt.  Nov 5th thru the 19th, pre-rut through full rut......with a rifle? How can any modern hunter find a complaint. 

A couple of us bow hunters may even buy modern tags in the next few years, just to hunt the late modern time frame with our bows.  Thats how good it is, in our opinions.....

4pt rule....better late than never.  R

[DBHAWTHORNE]

At 1 1/2 years old, a whitetail buck can sport 4 points on one side.  By what user groups definition, is a year and a half old buck a trophy??  4pt minimum will not hurt the herds, but may hurt  a few businesses.   

There will be fewer people travel to hunt 121 and 117.  Ive heard of many who will opt for other units.  The best modern hunt in the state is right here late modern hunt.  Nov 5th thru the 19th, pre-rut through full rut......with a rifle? How can any modern hunter find a complaint. 

A couple of us bow hunters may even buy modern tags in the next few years, just to hunt the late modern time frame with our bows.  Thats how good it is, in our opinions.....

4pt rule....better late than never.  R

I have seriously thought about purchasing a rifle tag the last few years for that very reason. I have heard a lot of rifle guys complain about their season but I always have more daylight photos of big bucks during that last week or so of modern. I think it is a great time to be in the woods and from a management stand point it doesn't make a lot of sense to have the rifle during the rut..but I doubt that will ever change.

[huntnnw]

I agree with ya on that DB..thought about it too,  but the rut in 127,130 to me peaks Around Nov 21-27 in those units and slightly earlier up north. And the management of deer and they go to 4pt min..if they truly wanted to mange these deer there would be no rifle rut hunting or permit it. The archery guys now are almost completly missing the rut and hunting post rut bucks

[Huntnphish]

 Decent buck from 117

[DBHAWTHORNE]

I agree with ya on that DB..thought about it too,  but the rut in 127,130 to me peaks Around Nov 21-27 in those units and slightly earlier up north. And the management of deer and they go to 4pt min..if they truly wanted to mange these deer there would be no rifle rut hunting or permit it. The archery guys now are almost completly missing the rut and hunting post rut bucks

I agree. The bucks here at the house rut during the week you are mentioning. We definitely miss out on most of the rut as bowhunters.

[buckcanyonlodge]

I agree with ya on that DB..thought about it too,  but the rut in 127,130 to me peaks Around Nov 21-27 in those units and slightly earlier up north. And the management of deer and they go to 4pt min..if they truly wanted to mange these deer there would be no rifle rut hunting or permit it. The archery guys now are almost completly missing the rut and hunting post rut bucks

I agree. The bucks here at the house rut during the week you are mentioning. We definitely miss out on most of the rut as bowhunters.

That's pretty much right on.I have mature bucks losing their antlers while the late bow season is still in progress.One thing you don't do up here is drag your buck by the antlers during the late bow hunt!Here is a photo of one such buck from last year. Check out the date on the trail cam pic.He lost his other antler the next day.

[piledup]

I agree with ya on that DB..thought about it too,  but the rut in 127,130 to me peaks Around Nov 21-27 in those units and slightly earlier up north. And the management of deer and they go to 4pt min..if they truly wanted to mange these deer there would be no rifle rut hunting or permit it. The archery guys now are almost completly missing the rut and hunting post rut bucks

I agree too. Only for the first week of late archery is when I will still see some bucks wondering around. As it gets later into the season, the bucks are nowhere to be found in the area I hunt.

By the way, that's a nice buck there Huntnphish