i need help with my vizsla... good pointer, bad retriever.

[jeepster]

i need some advice with my vizsla...

he is an awesome dog, and listens well in the house, and and when we are out and about, i never use a leash, he heals, sits, stays, and lies down. i can walk to the store with out a leash and he will wait for me outside....

 the problem is retrieving and listening beyond my reach... but i think because he is a male, he is testing me...

i hunted him last season and shot birds over him, and everything went well.... as well as things could have gone for a first time hunting dog owner... for the most part he stays within gun range, and doesnt rush in on birds, he holds well, and finds birds supprisingly well. overall, he is an awesome pointer.

he has no interest in retrieving birds. he definatley has no interest in a dead bird... once the bird is down he will find it and hold point untill i retrieve it myself. this lack in interest in retrieving goes as far as him showing a C- grade rating on even playing fetch.

i live in a col-de-sac- right against the woods and the alley we play in is about 150 yards long... i huck the ball, and 4/10 times he brings the ball back with out a hitch.....3/10 times he drops the ball and goes and eats grass 1/2 the way back.... the other 3/10 times, he drops the ball and takes a piss on the same bush... every time, then runs back to me totally forgetting about the ball, or he just takes off on the trailhead into the woods and i have to go hunt his ass down...................

ive been working with him on sit and stay after the ball is thrown.... as long as i am infront of the dog, he will stay no matter what the command, ive mixed things up.... ive tosed the ball, told him to stay, gone in the house, grabbed a drink, and came back outside and he has stayed put. once i say "okay" he goes and gets the ball....

if the dog is infront of me, he doesnt listen worth squat. he wont sit, he wont stay, he wont lie down. he wont do anything, if i tell him a command, he will stay put (standing and wagging his tail like a dork) untill i walk right up to him, and i tell him once, he doesnt listen, i tell him twice in a much firmer tone, and he doesnt listen...... i have to stomp a foot and yell loudly at him before he complys.....

ive tried praise, ive tried using doggie treats.... it doesnt matter.... if he is ahead of me, he just looks at me and says "F^#% You, im ahead of you, and there isnt a darn thing you can do".....


i sure could use some advice........

i know he isnt duck-dog material, as he freezes before the sun even rises, but he is made for pheseant and upland hunting...

he needs to know that even though i am beyond yelling range that there still is a hand-of-doom, and that no matter how far away he is, he needs to listen........ im tired of yelling, im tired of whistling......

is it time for a zapper collar???  i DO NOT want to take the fun out of training, as he is a very sensitive dog, but... im so tired of me ending the training sesion feeling like the dog is getting the better of me........

i wish i had the $$$ to send him to hunting dog "summer camp".......................

-Erik aka jeepster

[Happy Gilmore]

he is a pointer? Not uncommon. YOu can force fetch him and that is about your only recourse to a reliable delivery of birds.

[10Key]

I am by no means an expert, but I think Happy hit the nail on the head. It is tough to make a pointer a reliable retriever, I have experienced this with our Britt. Of course there are people that have done it with their pointers, but retrieving is a secondary or tertiary trait in pointers (typically).

[oneezreiter]

It seems like at least part of the issue is him not listening.  I would get the collar, go do a search on proper collar conditioning.  If you do it right you will have a better dog for it.  As far as retrieving goes, Visla's are versatile dogs, you can force fetch him, but you may want to let a pro do it or a friend that has done it before.  I have a GSP that luckily has a great natural retrieve, he is a big sissy, If i yell at him he pees.  I don't think he would be able to take force fetch.  find someone in your area that has experience and go from there.

[3dvapor]

I would start running him with a 30plus foot check cord and start using a whistle to have him change directions.  everytime you call him or give him a double on the whistle to change directions yank that rope.  He will catch on quick, believe me. a few hard yanks while hes sniffing doing his own thing will plumb him right up.  let him know that when you call you mean business, then when he comes, back it up with praise and possible treat.  This should work well for close ranges.  Ive done this before i have introduced an e-collar.  If you dont have one get one, just do alot of reading before using on your dog you could ruin him. 
  As far as fetching i would consider kenneling him and make fetching with a dummy and wing his only associatiion with you. for a month or two in other words if he only shows interest in 4 or 5 throws, throw the dummy 3 times and put him back in the kennel.  work up through the next couple months until hopefully fetching is his favorite game.  then send to trainer for force fetching.   

[NW-GSP]

my gsp is like a lab when It comes to retrieving things everything but birds, my dad has two gsp,s and had to force fetch train both of them. I am going to have someone else do the force fetch training on my dog. It takes someone that really knows what they are doing otherwise it can really screw a dog up

[RC3]

You just need to force fetch him but its not really that easy if you don't know what your doing you could do more harm than good

I also wouldn't mix your commands up when sending your dog consistency is the key, same exact way every time and only say command once.

[farmin4u_98948]

I had one with the same issue. The answer was my border collie. They hunted together. The border collie would bring everything back the the viss would find.. A great team....  Hey.... It worked for me...

[Dip-Zag]

With vizsla's it all comes down to praise... Or lack there of it. I trained and hunted my vizsla for the last 4 years. They are pretty sensitive dogs. I agree with using the check cord. If he doesn't retrieve then ignore him. Don't yell cause they honestly can't take it. Also, I found it's best to tired them out and then train. They seem to be a bit more focused.

[MP123]

An e-collar would be a good idea.  He'll quickly learn that you can reach out and touch him anywhere no matter how far out he is.  It's like a super long distance check cord.  Get one with a lot of adjustment levels and start with the low settings.  You don't want him to vocalise, just blink or twitch his ears slightly when you hit the button.

As for fetching I'd recommend "Smart Fetch" by Evan Graham.  He has a book and video with his approach to force fetching.  It's really not bad at all and did wonders for my Brittany.  The ear pinch is just a minor discomfort that the dog turns off by picking up the object.  It will at least give you something to fall back on if he decides he doesn't feel like retrieving today.

Good luck, it sounds like he's doing pretty good otherwise!

[KFhunter]

force fetching a dog is pretty deep into their training, honestly I wouldn't worry about it until you got everything else up to snuff.  Obiedence comes before all else, not just when the dog feels like it or you got nothing.

it does sound like its time for an Ecollar, but really the Ecollar is an extension of the check cord - so you need to go back to the check cord then condition for Ecollar.

I'd get everything else done then force fetch

[jeepster]

hmm yeah ive been debating getting an e-collar and was about to buy one, then i decided to try training without it, and things have worked alright... we got some birds last year, but my voice was shot after every hunt... but im getting tired of his degrading performance... for a while just yelling and whistling worked, but i think he learned nothing bad happens if im yelling my head off 50 feet away................

what would you guys reccomend? i dont wanna spend too much... id prefer something that i could give out a warning beep before the zap (if they make such thing)

[Shannon]

I also would highly recommend Evan Graham's "Smart Fetch". Watch the video and anyone could force fetch there dog if they have the commitment needed. My dog is a pointer and had a very good natural retrieve but I forced her to get the perfect retrieves everytime no matter what it was I sent her for mostly for the doggy games I run her in. If she was only a hunting dog her natural retrieve would have been plenty good enough.

[Shannon]

I use a Dogtra collar and love it. Tri-tronics would be my next choice. I wouldn't warn my dog before the correction though. If the dog doesn't comply after thoroughly understanding the command he instantly gets the correction. I think nagging the dog with a warning and a very mild correction is a common mistake.

[KFhunter]

I have a tritronics upland g3 combo w beeper

love it

no tone, don't need it - if I want a tone then I'll make a whistle

two short whistles means change direction, 3 means come in closer or pay attention
then I arm signal too to send her off in that direction