Subaru Forester ?

[AWS]

We are looking to buy a SUV to tow behind our small motor home.  It will be used for Rockhounding and Hunting no heavy offroad work.  It needs to be accessable by an old greyhound, and older humans, climbing into a jeep won't cut it.

So far one of the lightest, most ground clearance, can be towed four down and most room for everyone seems to be a Forester and the price is very reasonable.  Can any of you give me the Yeh's and Nay's of this rig?  Any suggestions for a tough little SUV wagon type body weighing in near 3000 lbs.

Thanks

AWS

[Woodchuck]

I would be asking questions about head gaskets, the 2.5's are famous for them, if near 100k, timing belt?

[yajsab]

I believe the gasket problem is the older style.  If you get the 2005+, it should be fine.  For a 4wd/awd in this class, you should be fine with the forester.  I don't have one, but I have an 2005 impreza.  I had no problem so far.  It's timing belt, so that service is due in a year or two.

[hunterbuilder]

I like the Ford Escape for that size of "cute-ute". I've had the Escape and it's cousin Mazda Tribute. Mercury Mariner is also basically the same vehicle. Ours were the 6cyl model, they also make a 4cyl with a manual transmission.

[FC]

2004 and later are free of the headgasket problems  , despite the rep that some on this site give them Subies really are great cars and you won't turn gay just by buying one unless your name is Paul  . If you have never owned a Subaru you will be AMAZED at how well they do both offroad and in the snow.

[Forrestrover]

We have a 2003 and love it. It's our second Forester. I highly recommend.

[cwuwildcat]

I don't know anything about subaru's, but how easily are they to tow?  Will you have to disconnect drivelines?  If so, don't they sit pretty low to get under?

[BigD]

Got the wife one in 08, does great, studded tires in the winter and you have a hard time breaking the tires loose in the snow or ice. I would reccomend one, I'm sure we will by another when this one is worn out. Also easy at the gas pump. 65k and not one problem yet, wish I could say that for my american rigs

[Bean Counter]

I no longer recommend Subarus. Around 60,000-120,000 you'll have a head gasket failure--almost guranteed. I think the newer ones (2010+) may avoid this problem with a resdesigned, multilayer shim gasket but the older ones it seems as though its unavoidable. Because of the design of the engine the labor is exhorbitant (like, 8 to 10 hours). $2,000 job. Its the head gasket, stupid.

+1 to everything else though: great crash saftey ratings, AWD is very nice in the PNW, etc.

[Bean Counter]

http://www.subaruheadgasket.com/

http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-head-gasket-problems-explained/#comment-60227

[Bean Counter]

How about a Toyota Rav4 instead?

[HntnFsh]

Brother in law bought an immaculate looking 06 Subaru a few months ago.Just over 100,000 miles.Put less that 2000 miles on it.Had to have the head gaskets replaced.Just over 2 grand.They have to pull the engine.Dealer Shop had it over 6 weeks.

Was also having heater problems.Found out the heater core was plugged. When he told me that.I just shook my head.Put 2 and 2 together.The car was haveing issues.Somebody put stop leak in it and dumped instead of fixing it.Expensive lesson!

[Woodchuck]

How about a Toyota Rav4 instead?

great choice 

[jeepasaurusrex]

A Jeep Cherokee has about the same entry height but way more ground clearance, not to mention interior space. I had one that I flat towed behind my truck/camper. It towed great.

[Woodchuck]

P.S. the turbo cars and the 6 cylinder cars do not seem to have the head gasket issues the normally aspirated 2.5 does.

[FC]

Hey Bean Counter did you notice this? http://www.subaruheadgasket.com/vehicleyear.htm

After 03 the problem was solved.

The problem was never the gaskets themselves, it was the open deck design of the engine block (case). The cylinders would squirm when the engine was pinging due to cheap or poor gas and eventually rub a leak in the gasket.

FWIW most of the issues I have run into with the later cars is people getting a water pump or hose leak and dumping stop-leak into them, that clogs up passages and heatercores and you end up with overheating issues quickly....Aluminum engine + bad overheating almost always = blown headgaskets, mainly caused by people driving them for a week with the needle in the red or right up to it.

[Woodchuck]

I am not trying to start a pissing match here but I have seen a bunch of post 03 2.5's with head gaskets on well maintained rigs, did they change the design? yes. Did it fix the issue? no.

[Buckmark]

A Jeep Cherokee has about the same entry height but way more ground clearance, not to mention interior space. I had one that I flat towed behind my truck/camper. It towed great.

Don't you still have one looking for a home?

[FC]

I am not trying to start a pissing match here but I have seen a bunch of post 03 2.5's with head gaskets on well maintained rigs, did they change the design? yes. Did it fix the issue? no.

Odd, they are not well known. Maybe it's something to do with the area your shop is in and the gas people are using or something?

idk man, the only other way I have seen cooling system issues with the later Subies is when people either mix coolants or use the wrong stuff. 

[Bean Counter]

Well it sounds as if AWS has been spectator to a good discussion and can now make a well informed decision. AWS, if you call the guys at All Wheel Drive Auto in Kirkland they've always been really cool about answering all my questions.

If you really want a Subaru then go ahead, but I would feel best if you could get one $2,000 below book value so you can save for a head gasket job.

Also you mentioned towing. Not sure how you'd plan to do that but you'll definitely want to leave all four tires on the ground due to the all time, all wheel drive.

[Bean Counter]

Hey Bean Counter did you notice this? http://www.subaruheadgasket.com/vehicleyear.htm

After 03 the problem was solved.

The problem was never the gaskets themselves, it was the open deck design of the engine block (case). The cylinders would squirm when the engine was pinging due to cheap or poor gas and eventually rub a leak in the gasket.

FWIW most of the issues I have run into with the later cars is people getting a water pump or hose leak and dumping stop-leak into them, that clogs up passages and heatercores and you end up with overheating issues quickly....Aluminum engine + bad overheating almost always = blown headgaskets, mainly caused by people driving them for a week with the needle in the red or right up to it.

I'll have to defer to you on this one--you're the expert.

The guys at AWD Auto said that they've seen plenty of 2005's, etc still coming in for a new head gasket. What a black eye for an other wise great vehicle.

In my research it seemed to me as though the 2010 models have avoided the issue due to the introduction of a multi layered gasket as opposed to the old school single ply type. Also, I was told they changed the torque specifications of the engine heads and actually loosening the head up a bit allows the gasket to be spongy enough to withstand leaks.

I had the wife's done at the Subaru dealership only because it would have been a long drive/tow to Kirkland. Also, for the $2,100 I spent, I talked the dealership into replacing the timing belt, water pump, seals, spark plugs, wires, thermostat, oil change, etc, etc... Also got a loaner car for a loooong weekend 

[FC]

Crazy stuff dude, what year is yours Bean Counter?

It makes me wonder if they didn't sneak some of the old motors in, they wouldn't be the first manufacturer to pull that!

I was just quoting your own source back in reference to 03 being the last bad year for those things although in my experience it's correct and that was when they went back to the closed deck block design. The gaskets used were (stock) a shim type gasket so they don't deal well with any movement or surface imperfections, they work great for most applications.

As for AWS, no matter what you buy, if going used GET IT INSPECTED FIRST!!!!!

[Bean Counter]

Crazy stuff dude, what year is yours Bean Counter?

It makes me wonder if they didn't sneak some of the old motors in, they wouldn't be the first manufacturer to pull that!

I was just quoting your own source back in reference to 03 being the last bad year for those things although in my experience it's correct and that was when they went back to the closed deck block design. The gaskets used were (stock) a shim type gasket so they don't deal well with any movement or surface imperfections, they work great for most applications.

As for AWS, no matter what you buy, if going used GET IT INSPECTED FIRST!!!!!

2003 

[Woodchuck]

As for AWS, no matter what you buy, if going used GET IT INSPECTED FIRST!!!!!






 

[FC]

2003 

lol....sucks man.

[jackelope]

What do you have to do to be able to tow one behind the RV?
And what do you have to do to be able to tow the Rav4, the Escape, etc. I'm not fond of the idea of putting an inline electric pump in to circulate fluid so the trans doesn't burn up or disconnect drivelines, etc.

Jeeps just put the T-case in neutral, leave the trans in park and turn the key a click forward and you're good to go. Some of the newer ones aren't that simple but mostly anything 05 or older will do.

[CAMPMEAT]

Over here in my neck of the woods, just about every 5th car is a Subaru, old and newer. No kidding, very popular as they get around very well in snow, ice, rain etc. Even the non-hippies drive 'em. 

[jeepasaurusrex]

A Jeep Cherokee has about the same entry height but way more ground clearance, not to mention interior space. I had one that I flat towed behind my truck/camper. It towed great.

Don't you still have one looking for a home?

I still have a 94 Grand Cherokee I'll sell cheap. 

[AWS]

We're looking at new.  And the manual transmission Forester can be towed four down without any changes.

Thanks for the info, this has been a great help.  If anyone wants to add to this keep it coming.

I alreaady have a 90 Pathfinder, we are looking for something much smaller to tow behind a E-350 based class B gas rig.

Thanks

AWS

[Bean Counter]

...
Thanks for the info, this has been a great help.  If anyone wants to add to this keep it coming.
...

The wife's '03 Outback wagon got 27.25 mpg on the last tank of gas. Not bad for all wheel drive. Do you even get 1/2 that in your truck?

Back in the snowstorm of 2007 I chained up all four and was able to drive up the steepest hills that seemed like they were almost a solid sheet of ice. One hill in Lake Forrest Park had like two dozen cars spun out on it. Subaru's are a low clearance vehicle as far as chains go so go with cable chains from a company like SCC.

But still... the gasket issue is the big gorilla...

[RadSav]

Do you really have to wear Birkenstocks and own a bong to experience the full Subaru potential? 

Ford Escape is hard to beat in that size.  Though I do not know what the weight and tow difference is.

[jackelope]

But still... the gasket issue is the big gorilla...

My sister in law got hers done under warranty at nearly 100k miles. She did not have a service contract. This was covered by Subaru...some sort of extended warranty. I think she even bought the parts and had them replace the timing belt, etc while it was apart....no additional labor.
90k timing belt?

[Woodchuck]

105k is the interval on the belt. The warranty extension is to 60k to start with, if there is an issue before 60 they do a "cooling system conditioner" and at that point the warranty is extended to 100k. If the "conditioner is not done before 60 you are on your own.

[jackelope]

Aaahhh I see. I don't know any of the details of her particular scenario. Thanks Chuck!

[addicted]

We're looking at new.  And the manual transmission Forester can be towed four down without any changes.

Thanks for the info, this has been a great help.  If anyone wants to add to this keep it coming.

I alreaady have a 90 Pathfinder, we are looking for something much smaller to tow behind a E-350 based class B gas rig.

Thanks

AWS

can I have your pathy?   

[Buckmark]

Just to add to this thread, something to consider no matter what rig you purchase to tow behind your E350, you should add a seperate braking controller in the towed vehicle.
Flat towing a 3000+ pound vehicle behind a class B camper van could be fun without any brake contribution from the towed vehicle...

[akirkland]

Just to add to this thread, something to consider no matter what rig you purchase to tow behind your E350, you should add a seperate braking controller in the towed vehicle.
Flat towing a 3000+ pound vehicle behind a class B camper van could be fun without any brake contribution from the towed vehicle...

[AWS]

A braking system is a given for me on a towed vehicle, thanks for the reminder though.

AWS

[nontypical176]

Well....I was hoping to avoid this conversation, but I also am the owner of a Forester.  My buddies in eastern Wa. like theirs/few problems, and with the fuel prices and major miles I put on because of work it only made sense.  I only have 20k on mine but thats in just a few months.  I get laughed at by the guys at work and friends, but I am laughing at the gas pump and when my monthly vehicle bill arrives.  The *censored*s even put some stickers on it(Save the Wails, green peace, 2 bears hugging, and a rainbow)....I removed them of course.

I looked for quite a while and for right at $20,000 brand new I couldn't find a better deal.  It has performed well as far as the 4'wheel drive goes, and although it has the highest ground clearance in its class it could still use a 4" lift.  Not a lot of room in the wheel wells, and the suspension ain't like a truck for sure, I have bottomed mine out.  The AC is a little week also.  Wish it had a 6 speed tranny to get a better granny gear for crawling and a little more at the top. 

It loves the 50-60mph range but fuel economy starts to fall at that point.  I do lots of hiway driving 70+ and crawling down backroads and all put together from the day I bought it till now its got 25.5mph combined, I have not reset the trip meter.  Thats idling and towing too, which by the way they put a 1"reciever on my rig, makes my little toyota 4x look pathetic(power wise) and tows my little trailer with a quad and motorcycle on it like a champ.  And it is roomy can handle 6'+ tall adults no problem, 4 of us took it to the beach clam digging first weekend I had it and my friends aint slim niether.  No problems to speak of at this time, but it is fairly new.

I am not gay, or worried about the polar bears.  I can't wait to stuff an elk in the back.  Hope that helps.

[twistiron]

o man time for my   
as i stated in my introductions i am from Vermont, subaru is the number 1 car. my mom has had an subaru since 86 i think she is up to 8 granted only the last 3 where new, she puts 60000 on a year with no issues. she had a 05 with a 2.5 that went to 140000 no gasket issues, could have been a good one. since then she has had 2, she got smart and traded before the milage killed the value, no issues. i almost bought my wife one but since we have a truck for off road the 50 mpg tdi jetta could not be beat. if i was in AWS's situation and it had to be a subaru it would be an out back, look it up they have the most ground clearence (more then a grand cherokee in 2010) and seam to get better milage. here is why i would not get a subaru, 3000 +/- lbs that they way is going to be hard as hell on a gas e350 rv thats a might bit of combined weight. i would find a clean suzuki samuri of geo tracker cheep, easy to maintain, light and T cases for easy towing. the little bit less milage they will get from the subaru you will far make up for in the savings in towing milage. as said before just my  good luck.