A bit Dissapointed

[Bwana Bob]

Thanks guys for all the tips and support.

 I got her out again Fri and Sat this past weekend. I did hunt her with my old dog again but it was a place that I could hunt all day and didn't want the old dog to sit in the truck that long. It was the best day I had with her all season. she pointed 4 or 5 birds and I killed a few over her. She even locked up on birds my old dog pointed and never took them out. she is backing but only if she is in the scent cone. Too bad the sage was too high for me to kill all the birds over her points. She chased down a cripple and brought it back but she want to play the possession game with them. She will eventually give them to me. She even wanted to pull the bird out of my other dogs mouth to retrieve it. She did bring the dead pigeons I shot over her to hand, not so the quail. I'm happy she's retrieving and not dropping them somewhere short of me.
She did a nice point on a covey of quail at the end the day. As I walked in she took them out before I could get close to her. Thank god for the collar.
The next day was an eye opener and I learned a little more about her.  I hunted her with a friends dog, an English pointer. I was surprised as she paid little attention to him and hunted by me for the most part. She took out or bumped a covey of chukar which I never seen in this spot but stoped to the flush on her own. But the two of them bumped enough quail to get us both frustrated. We did not shoot any of the flushed quail.

She wants to creep in and without the collar on she will blow me off as far as coming and Whoaing if she on birds. I think a check cord will do  wonders  if I can find a friend that can shoot 70% or better. I've shot so few birds that not having a gun to carry won't bother me. With a check cord I could cure her of creeping and reinforce the whoa command. I plan to leave my old dog with a friend so I won't have an excuse to take her. But seeing a 13 yr old dog on solid points makes me happy for all the training I've done with her, which was very little for a smart dog. This one is a HH SOB but with a lot of drive and desire to hunt. Maybe all is not lost yet.

[wildweeds]

Just forget about the whoa command around game. It's really not or ever was for use on birds.

[jjaba]

I used the check chord on my English Pointer for a while till her and i got used to each other.  I ran the hand hold through my belt so I had hands free to shoot. worked well. she got the idea. still a work in progress but she got me a few birds this year.

[scottr]

You've got to be really disciplined and consistent with the training including resisting the urge to hunt your older dog with the younger. If you have the coveys of quail to work over just carry a starter pistol or get a buddy to shoot. As soon as your dog gets scent and points give her a gentle woah. Hold the cord and have your buddy walk in from the side of the dog (not from straight behind) to flush the birds. If she breaks, let her take out the birds and give her an immediate correction by picking her up, putting her back on the woah spot, and give her a firm, loud WOAH! Then walk around, kick bushes, etc. she needs to stay until you release her. Her reward is the shot of the gun (and it sounds like the dead bird). I would not use the collar when she is on birds as this can lead to blinking.

[scottr]

This video gets to the idea with the shot coming at the hunter flushing the birds or flushing wild as long as the dog held point

[Bwana Bob]

I got my dogs out this past Sun - Tues. I had the best outing with my new dog so far. She pointed quite a few quail and I was able to shoot a few over her and she retrieved them all. She takes her time picking them up and coming to me but she will bring them to hand. I praise her and stroke her sides and she will drop them. She's a bit hard mouth but not bad. She's hell on running down cripples but I'm not sure she can track one down for a long distance > 50 yd. I know she will get that down with time.

I hunted her without my other dog and she listens better and covered the ground in front of me and not off to one side. She still wants to chase birds she flushes and birds I kick out over her points and not shoot or miss. In all fairness, my dog was not broke to wing and shot, so even though she she did not chase released pigeons she pointed, I really can't blame the dog for my shortcomings. She did stop to a flush on a covey of huns but that was a fluke, but chasing birds 100 plus yd is not acceptable and a waste of energy.  The collar is good or that problem.

In some ways I'm setting her up to fail. Hunting running quail in head high sage is tough on any dog and a dog bulldozing through it will set some to flight. Hunting quail in cattle grazed thin cover takes an experience cautious dog and she doesn't have that experience yet. I should be happy she's bird crazed with a strong desire to hunt.

Thanks guys for all your advice and have a Merry Christmas and a great end to this bird season.

Bob

[10Key]

I got my dogs out this past Sun - Tues. I had the best outing with my new dog so far. She pointed quite a few quail and I was able to shoot a few over her and she retrieved them all. She takes her time picking them up and coming to me but she will bring them to hand. I praise her and stroke her sides and she will drop them. She's a bit hard mouth but not bad. She's hell on running down cripples but I'm not sure she can track one down for a long distance > 50 yd. I know she will get that down with time.

I hunted her without my other dog and she listens better and covered the ground in front of me and not off to one side. She still wants to chase birds she flushes and birds I kick out over her points and not shoot or miss. In all fairness, my dog was not broke to wing and shot, so even though she she did not chase released pigeons she pointed, I really can't blame the dog for my shortcomings. She did stop to a flush on a covey of huns but that was a fluke, but chasing birds 100 plus yd is not acceptable and a waste of energy.  The collar is good or that problem.

In some ways I'm setting her up to fail. Hunting running quail in head high sage is tough on any dog and a dog bulldozing through it will set some to flight. Hunting quail in cattle grazed thin cover takes an experience cautious dog and she doesn't have that experience yet. I should be happy she's bird crazed with a strong desire to hunt.

Thanks guys for all your advice and have a Merry Christmas and a great end to this bird season.

Bob

Good to hear you are making some strides, sometimes the birds can be fickle, tall sage and quail are a tough mix as are Huns in 8" cheat grass...flighty as heck. Just remember, the dogs that are steady to wing and or shot, have hours and hours and hours of training to get there...very hard for someone that is a self trainer to accomplish, especially on the wetside with limited training options. Keep having fun!

[Bwana Bob]

Just wanted to thank everyone again for all the advice and give a quick update on my dogs progress. I hunted the last few weekends of the season after Christmas and things really came together for my dog. I was able to shoot 2 limits of quail over her and a few other days 4 or 5 birds each day. She is holding a solid point a bit further away than before. For the most part she's not creeping in when I approach her on point. She still wants to chase birds I miss or she flushes, too far. I think I will attempt to break her to wing and shot this spring or at least to wing.
She has a better nose than I first thought. She stood sniffing the air on a week point in a field that was snow covered with little cover and no bird tracks . I released her and she went on point a good 300 yd away on a covey of 60 quail. They flew as soon as she pointed them. I definitely doubted that there were any birds in the area. I plan to get her out on chukars and quail in the next few weeks while I can still train on wild birds.

On a side note, chukar and Huns on crusty snow and scant cover are tuff  to hunt. My young dog could see them on the snow and would flush them which I expected she do. So in the next spot I put my 12 yr dog on the ground. She pointed them some times 50 yd away but all the noise I made breaking through the crust set the birds to flight. Maybe if I had a 3 1/2 inch 12ga mag with 2 oz  of #6 's and full chock I could have shot some, but my 2 3/4 in 20ga with 1oz of #6's was useless.

Now to find some snow less cover to train my dog and maybe hunt a coyote or bunny or two.

[follow maggie]

Good news. Just keep taking the pup out where there's es wild birds, I thnk it'll come together for you.

[Bwana Bob]

Went to the east side last weekend for some dog training on wild birds. I hunted chukar for 5 1/2 hrs on Sat with the dog solidly pointing 5 small groups of chukar. She really surprised me because the birds were in some sparse cover and short sage. She's not crowding the birds with most points at least 30-40 ft away The birds were paired up for the most part with no big coveys found. She creep'd a bit on approaching her but a short nice from the collar stopped her. I had to use the collar a few times to stop her from running after them but she got the idea and watched a few fly off with no chasing. Still far from perfect. 

The next day we hunted a spot for quail. A coyote got between the dog and me and started the most dreadful howling. For a second i thought it was caught in a snare or attacking my dog. Just then a covey of about 60 fly over me with the dog in hot pursuit. I had to use the collar to stop her. The birds flew far in landing in sparse cover. Well it wasn't pretty and for the most past she just flushed them with only a few pointed for a brief time. There was enough good cover that I thought she should have been able to point more birds that she did. The birds seemed flighty, maybe because of the coyotes hunting them and now my dog busting them. She was like a dog on crack, head down running through the sage.   Now i had birds scattered in a 400 yd area. It took her awhile to find another bird which was good. She started to settle down and pointed birds that landed in the rocks at the base of a long cliff band.The cover there was very thick and she did well, pointing at least 1/2 doz birds. Compared to my old male that passed away, she did poorly. He would have pointed 90 % of the birds without busting them.
I know its hard to compare dogs but I give up bird hunting if I could hunt one more season with him.

My dog is broke to the gun so no need to kill birds and she retrieves well. Not to sure on her ability to find wounded birds but she tries hard. I'm thinking I need to get some homers and plant them and break her to wing. Her chasing birds has got to stop. She will shag a bird 200 yd if you let her. I think she will settle down a bit faster if she doesn't chase them.
I don't think releasing tethered bird she points will help. they will land too close to the point only increasing her drive to chase and catch them.

Any tips on how I should proceed with the training would be appreciated. will have to go over the PS/PF dvd's for some more training advice but some of it is hard to do by your self. I'd be happy to pay $5 a piece for homers I can borrow and plant at Cherry valley. I live in the bothell area.   

[wildweeds]

Quicksilver kennels in Moses lake has monthly weekend 2 day training sessions. Birds,land,advice and a plan with homework. You get the pro help advantage and self satisfaction of doing the work yourself.