Four point minimum 117&121

[bearpaw]

Yes, I supported it for the health of the herd. This has all been expalined many times on here but here is why I supported it. Our herd is down and everyone knows that predator numbers are high preventing a fast recovery. The Commission wisely eliminated doe tags, however, that puts all the hunters out hunting for bucks. So now at a time with fewer bucks we now have a greater percentage of hunters hunting for them. It only makes sense to reduce the buck harvest. The WDFW formed a whitetail working group of which I and many others were members. To my knowledge, I was the only guide in the room, most of the others were hunters and landowners.

It was discussed to shorten season, go to a permit system, the 4 pt minimum, and even other ideas. By a majority the group chose the 4 pt minimum so that the harvest of bucks would be reduced yet hunters could go hunting.

So it wasn't a bunch of guides, there are only a small handful in the area, it was groups of local hunters and landowners for the most part who pushed for this rule to try and rebuild the herd.

As I have stated probably a hundred times, and as I told Dana Base while we were doing deer counts this August, I will reconsider my position after we see the effects on the herd in 5 years. If it appears we're better off changing back, that is what I will support. In a year or two, it might even make sense to let the kids shoot any buck, but lets see how the herd recovers first.

For anyone who doubts the herd is down, look at harvest statistics for the last 10 or 20 years. 

I think BOWHUNTER45 and WACoyote summarized it pretty well, thanks. 

[bobcat]

the deer there are going to be going crazy pretty quick

What does this mean?

[trophyhunt]

We need to up the deer numbers to feed the wolves.

[bearpaw]

We need to up the deer numbers to feed the wolves.

That is another concern. Wolves are multiplying fast in NE WA. The lolo zone in Idaho had an excessive winter kill on elk immediately folloowed by an increase in wolf numbers, the herd continued to decline and is now at 10% of previous numbers. History shows us that its important to recover this deer herd before the wolves multiply.

[thatdamguy]

Bearpaw thank you for the feed back. As you said hopfully in few years the population will be up they can revisit this to see if it still necessary. Now where do we sign to get the hounds back for cougar hunting, now that will get the heard back up !

[bearpaw]

Bearpaw thank you for the feed back. As you said hopfully in few years the population will be up they can revisit this to see if it still necessary. Now where do we sign to get the hounds back for cougar hunting, now that will get the heard back up !

   I agree....

[724wd]

it might even make sense to let the kids shoot any buck

my biggest beef with 4 pt minimum is how it would effect youth hunter recruitment.  any buck for 15 year and under kids would be awesome!     let the kids shoot some deer and get hooked on hunting!  we have to keep them interested, and trophy hunting isn't the way.  there's not that many kids that it would be detrimental to the herd.

my first deer was a doe (button buck in the end) and that started the ball rolling.  i'm still a meat hunter primarily, and would have been happy to shoot a doe in early archery with my daughter, but not being able to meant more time in the blind seeing a parade of does stroll by.  the lower end of 117 seems to have recovered pretty dang quick, at least in my area!

[thatdamguy]

it might even make sense to let the kids shoot any buck

my biggest beef with 4 pt minimum is how it would effect youth hunter recruitment.  any buck for 15 year and under kids would be awesome!     let the kids shoot some deer and get hooked on hunting!  we have to keep them interested, and trophy hunting isn't the way.  there's not that many kids that it would be detrimental to the herd.

my first deer was a doe (button buck in the end) and that started the ball rolling.  i'm still a meat hunter primarily, and would have been happy to shoot a doe in early archery with my daughter, but not being able to meant more time in the blind seeing a parade of does stroll by.  the lower end of 117 seems to have recovered pretty dang quick, at least in my area!

Couldn't agree with you more every year on our farm we let a kid or someone who has never killed a whitetail harvest one. I really enjoy watching someone become a life long sportsman or woman. Youth should be any buck or maybe only a 3 point minimum

[WAcoyotehunter]

the deer there are going to be going crazy pretty quick

What does this mean?

Sorry- it means the population will likely rebound quickly and hunters are going to see an increase in quality deer hunting and herd dynamics.

[popeshawnpaul]

At the last Game Management Advisory Council meeting, this issue was brought up.  WDFW indicated their biologists convened to talk about this issue and all agreed it would not result in larger bucks.  All but one biologist agreed it only would result in a short term (1-3 year) jump in the population due to young spikes and bucks surviving.  It was only to be considered on the short term but general opinion on the issue did not favor the 4 point rule. 

The WDFW had indicated they were going to cut the antlerless/special tags and see how that improved the population.  I'm surprised this passed somehow with little support this year.  From a science standpoint, you'll have hunters continuing to hunt, passing those small deer they would have shot to take out the mature deer.  Mature deer will be under more pressure and young deer will do the breeding and more large bucks will die.  There was never a problem with large bucks in this general area.  However, if you are a small section land owner, this will ensure that your pet buck might survive for you to kill him instead of your neighbor taking him out when he's too young.

Yet another loss of opportunity without first trying the preferred alternative.  There is also a lot of hunting pressure on the mature bucks in these 100 series GMU's because the late season hunters (partly bowhunters) have no other places to hunt like throughout the 200 series GMU's due to cuts in late seasons. 

Less opportunity, more hunters jammed into less and smaller units.  Then we'll have to fix that problem but cutting more units in the upcoming years.  See a trend?

[thatdamguy]

The DFW is VERY quick to take away hunting privileges and very slow to give them back... If at all

[buckcanyonlodge]

Here is my 2 cents worth. I also talked with Dana Base as well as the regional biologist from Spokane and Jerry Nelson head biologist from Olympia. They are ALL AGAINST this 4 point restriction. No scientific basis. It was pushed through by the Game Commissioner from Kettle Falls. I was warned about this going through by a local game warden last September. And I quote" the commissioner from Kettle Falls is in the back pocket of some large land owners and sportsman clubs and they want the restriction so they can shoot bigger bucks and then be able to charge more for their hunts"  NOT my words. These came from the warden who said" don't use my name." Everyone I talked to in the Wildlife Dept. told me not to use their names but stated pretty much the same. Political CRAP. Trophy hunting is a personal choice not a management tool. I do not shoot small bucks but I don't think I have the right to tell everyone including youth, disabled, and senior hunters that they can't shoot smaller bucks.Especially when it does nothing to increase the overall herd. Ask Mr. Nelson. I have read that this worked in Alabama and Pennsylvania. Do they have 7 feet of snow during the winter? Or huge populations of bear, cougar, coyotes, and now wolves? Hell no.I am in the field 12 months of the year in Stevens County and there are lots of mature bucks that escape to breed every year. I see them!!! No fawns is the result of the predators. Not unbred does.   ASK the biologists that were hired by the State of Washington to manage the deer herds. I have. In addition the local business' from Fruitland to Chewelah will feel the economic impact of this selfish restriction. They depend on the seasonal influx of out of area hunters to help them through the lean winters. Remember, hunting whitetail deer in Units 121&117 is for ALL hunters from everywhere. Not just the local and vocal "sportsman clubs and land owners. I know I'll get blasted by the trophy hunters and citizen scientists out there but I have a right to my position just as you do. You gotta have thick skin to put something like this up for comment!!! Also, If you have cancelled your hunting plans this year to 121 or 117 because of the 4 point restriction please let me know via PM or just reply.  Thanks.

[whacker1]

Yet another loss of opportunity without first trying the preferred alternative. 

Pope - what you were you saying was the preferred alternative?  I didn't follow that part of your post.

[walt]

Here is my 2 cents worth. I also talked with Dana Base as well as the regional biologist from Spokane and Jerry Nelson head biologist from Olympia. They are ALL AGAINST this 4 point restriction. No scientific basis. It was pushed through by the Game Commissioner from Kettle Falls. I was warned about this going through by a local game warden last September. And I quote" the commissioner from Kettle Falls is in the back pocket of some large land owners and sportsman clubs and they want the restriction so they can shoot bigger bucks and then be able to charge more for their hunts"  NOT my words. These came from the warden who said" don't use my name." Everyone I talked to in the Wildlife Dept. told me not to use their names but stated pretty much the same. Political CRAP. Trophy hunting is a personal choice not a management tool. I do not shoot small bucks but I don't think I have the right to tell everyone including youth, disabled, and senior hunters that they can't shoot smaller bucks.Especially when it does nothing to increase the overall herd. Ask Mr. Nelson. I have read that this worked in Alabama and Pennsylvania. Do they have 7 feet of snow during the winter? Or huge populations of bear, cougar, coyotes, and now wolves? Hell no.I am in the field 12 months of the year in Stevens County and there are lots of mature bucks that escape to breed every year. I see them!!! No fawns is the result of the predators. Not unbred does.   ASK the biologists that were hired by the State of Washington to manage the deer herds. I have. In addition the local business' from Fruitland to Chewelah will feel the economic impact of this selfish restriction. They depend on the seasonal influx of out of area hunters to help them through the lean winters. Remember, hunting whitetail deer in Units 121&117 is for ALL hunters from everywhere. Not just the local and vocal "sportsman clubs and land owners. I know I'll get blasted by the trophy hunters and citizen scientists out there but I have a right to my position just as you do. You gotta have thick skin to put something like this up for comment!!! Also, If you have cancelled your hunting plans this year to 121 or 117 because of the 4 point restriction please let me know via PM or just reply.  Thanks.

   Pretty much sums up exactly why I was opposed to it. 

[popeshawnpaul]

Yet another loss of opportunity without first trying the preferred alternative. 

Pope - what you were you saying was the preferred alternative?  I didn't follow that part of your post.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  The preferred alternative was to keep it at status quo, eliminate the special tags/antlerless, and we voted to approve funds (50k if I remember right) for a study to find out why the population isn't as healthy as it use to be.  We appropriated the 50K and asked for status quo.  I expected it to go that way with no opposition, and the WDFW biologists all (but one) agreeing the 4 point minimum would not accomplish the goal of trophy bucks.  Rather, it was a short term solution to increase overall population.  I don't know how the 4 point rules got into effect this year.  Someone has some serious pull within the WDFW to circumvent all the process.  Quite frustrating, really.