Four point minimum 117&121

[grundy53]

I should be careful here, there are actually people in wildlife management that I do have great respect for.

I just have a hard time watching this new breed of predator worshipper bios who want to destroy our herds because they can't stand to see predators managed and have been taught that predators only eat the sick and weak, the rest of the time they must only eat grasshoppers.

  The new biologist are a joke. They ultimately want to end hunting and let "nature" keep everything in balance. Like you said earlier thirty or forty years ago there were way more hunters and way more animals. So if they could do it then without all this fancy high tech science what are these leaf licker biologists excuse?

[bearpaw]

Something that not everyone realizes is that the bios brought all their data to the whitetail working group. We looked through the data and the data shows our herd is on a marginal basis. Fawn recruitment is minimal which is why we wanted predators addressed.

In my opinion there are areas that had quite a few deer as recent as 5 years ago but are nearly void of deer today, but there certainly is no shortage of whitetail habitat.

The biggest problem really seems to be a lack of fawn recruitment and continued loss of adult deer to a multitude of causes including cars and hunting. Unfortunately, the WDFW will not allow predator control and their answer to limiting car collisions was a special kill season along Hwy 395, so there's not much we can do to increase deer numbers except limit human hunting harvest and hope coyote hunting gets more popular. Mathmatically, if we limit harvest now, herd numbers should rebound quicker unless the predator pit is too extreme and predators simply eat any gains in numbers that humans provide by limiting harvest. If the predator pit is that extreme, there will be very low deer numbers for a very long time and that's not a good option. Only time will tell if the APR and the reduction in doe harvest is enough to make a difference, hopefully it is.

[Maverick]

Yes that buck on the left is the same as the the bottom pic. That bottom buck is 22 wide.

those are 2.5 and 3.5 yr old bucks............none of those bucks are 4.5 yrs or older.....

those bucks are exactly what I am talking about...........the avg hunter shoots those bucks and thinks they are shooting "mature" bucks, when, in fact, they are only shooting 1 yr older bucks then they would have without the APR;

And that's one year for them to get bigger. So what's so wrong with that? To me the system works because id rather shoot bucks like that than one year younger. Don't you have to see the teeth to know their actual age?

[buckfvr]

GOals and agendas of Biologist  are vastly different today from those of 40 years ago.  Their education differs......the argument that some of them have the common sense educated out of them  has merrit.  You have an anti gun anti hunt governor, who picks a commission who picks a director who hires bios.....on and on and on.....do not tell me they arent on a mission......thats all I will say about that.

The APR.....we now have it, we will see what comes of it.....My guess is if it does not produce favorable results, the very least that can happen is the late modern hunt will be by permit only, and rightly so.  Although encouraged by some of the great bucks I saw this last year, the numbers are still way too low......does included, fawns imparticular. 

Predators are the one thing we all need to dedicate some time to.  Two days ago, and again today I saw coyotes chasing deer.  We all need to do what we can about the coyote problem....If I cant get on a private piece, I always encourage the owner to help out.....Im done arguing /reading arguments about APR......We will all know more in a couple years......One Voice, One Goal

[fishingnut71]

Very well said bearpaw!

[Sitka_Blacktail]

Predators are the one thing we all need to dedicate some time to.  Two days ago, and again today I saw coyotes chasing deer.  We all need to do what we can about the coyote problem...

I know this is an unpopular view, but give the wolves a little time, and they will help with the coyote problem. Coyotes are by far the biggest killers of fawns. And they also take down full grown deer.  Wolves are way more self limiting than coyotes and very territorial, even with other wolves.  And they also take out other predators in their territories. 

[grundy53]

Predators are the one thing we all need to dedicate some time to.  Two days ago, and again today I saw coyotes chasing deer.  We all need to do what we can about the coyote problem...

I know this is an unpopular view, but give the wolves a little time, and they will help with the coyote problem. Coyotes are by far the biggest killers of fawns. And they also take down full grown deer.  Wolves are way more self limiting than coyotes and very territorial, even with other wolves.  And they also take out other predators in their territories.

Broken arm? Just give the terminal cancer some time. That broken arm won't be a problem once it kills you.

[muleyguy]

Don't you have to see the teeth to know their actual age?

no; once you have harvested enough deer and had the chance to observe good numbers of mature bucks in the field, it is not hard to judge a bucks age by his antler configuration, facial configuration and body makeup;

your mistake on the age of these bucks is a common one from hunters in WA state;

And that's one year for them to get bigger. So what's so wrong with that?

there is nothing wrong with it;  the question though, is at what cost is there to the herd from this rule change??   

the cost is that you end up stockpiling 1.5 yr old bucks in the population;  they quickly become the biggest component of the buck population;  and, you slowly erode the mature buck population (4.5 yr old and older) because the rule change focus' harvest on the older age classes.

so, you end up with immature bucks doing a lot of the breeding which causes lots of problems;  and, you get long term problems in the genetic makeup of bucks because these hunting regulations reward the poorest antler producing bucks, and hammer the better antler producing bucks.

In the Eastern US areas where they have APR's, they give the hunters an antlerless hunting option because the productivity of the herds is so high;  this pulls a tremendous amount of hunting pressure off of the buck population;  in Penn last year, 60% of the harvest was antlerless;  that is 60% of the hunters NOT shooting a buck;

Even under this scenario of pulling all this hunting pressure off of the buck population, they still have little or no recruitment into the 4.5 yr old class;

The problem here is our herds are not productive; so we can't shoot antlerless;  so everybody is looking for bucks to shoot;  under this scenario, virtually every buck will be shot the first or second yr it is legal, we will get almost no recruitment above 3.5 yr olds, and we will get a slow erosion of the older age classes (4.5 yr old or older).

So, the "cost" to the makeup of the buck popluation is high;  you will have a big shift lower in the age structure of the buck population;

A simply way to think about it is this:

If we did this in humans, we would essentially have a world full of 13 yr old boys doing the breeding, and dominating social behaviour in the male component of the population;  the 20 to 40 yr old age males would all get killed every year;  and, we would have a long term declining population of men from 40 to 60.

So, what kind of impact do you suppose that might have?  probably not a good one in humans, and probably not a good one deer populations either......

To me the system works because id rather shoot bucks like that than one year younger

And, this statement is why we will NEVER get rid of APR's in those units........because the avg hunter will shoot a buck one yr older then they ever have been, and, will, just like you and your hunting group think you are now shooting "mature" bucks.  The public support will be overwhelmingly high in support of this after a couple of years; 

The problem is, the cost to the herd is not easily reconinzable, but, the cost is there..........the bio's understand this cost, that is why they were against it;  I'm not defending every decision those guys make, but, in this case, they are right.  The avg hunter does not understand the cost because the cost is a long term one in the form of poorer fawn recruitment, and poorer antler genetics.

this rule is exactly what is wrong with our society:  it gives a quick and easy benefit, but, ignores the long term damage the rule will do;

[Miles]

Don't you have to see the teeth to know their actual age?

no; once you have harvested enough deer and had the chance to observe good numbers of mature bucks in the field, it is not hard to judge a bucks age by his antler configuration, facial configuration and body makeup;

your mistake on the age of these bucks is a common one from hunters in WA state;

How old is this buck?  I know it's not a whitetail (which is what this topic is about), but I thought I'd ask your opinion here since I know you'll see it.

[Maverick]

Obviously not every buck is getting shot at a young age. Guys are still getting big old bucks on trail cam. No matter what I will always vote for 3 point or better. Back when they started it here in washington guys started seeing way better bucks. A buck can't get older and bigger if someone shoots it. That's why this year I passed tiny bucks up looking for a big boy. in the end one unlucky Lil guy died but a lot were spared. I don't care if guys shoot the first legal buck they see. It's there tag and their right. And ill high 5 a guy no matter how big the buck. Just thought is say that because I know some guys about it

[Maverick]

How old is this buck?

[bobcat]

Maverick's buck- 3 1/2

Mile's buck- 5 1/2


Just guessing, I'd be curious to hear what muleyguy says or anyone else more competent at aging deer.

[huntnnw]

maverick 3.5

once a buck hits 4.5 and older it becomes almost impossible to age correctly

[muleyguy]

maverick 3.5

once a buck hits 4.5 and older it becomes almost impossible to age correctly

maverick 3.5

I would also agree that it becomes difficult to age after 4.5 yr old;  but miles buck is in the 4.5 yr old or older class.  pretty easy to get them dialed in at 4.5;  much tougher after that

[Miles]

Definitely 4.5+.    His teeth were worn flat to the point that they were just barely protruding above the gum line.