Four point minimum 117&121

[bearpaw]

if the state was serious about deer management for whities it would be for either sex for them. But a big hell no they would lose way too much in the almighty special permit apps

I'm not sure our herd could handle the pressure. I think everyone in the state with an unfilled tag would fill their tag on a whitetail doe. 

[huntnnw]

I dont think that would happen..alot of guys hunt for bucks only... then some want to meat in the freezer and blast a young buck on the last weekend when many would shoot a doe instead if they had the choice. ID has been very liberal with their whitetail seasons and the herd does just fine in ID..hunting pressure less? maybe alot of public land to be hunted there as opposed to a ton of private land here in NE WA

[jdurham]

I have read some good articles on deer management.  Some of the best by Dr. Deer, James Kroll.  He made a very good point about herd management.  Numbers and herd health cannot be managed unless man is the top predator!  We can choose what needs to be harvested to improve our herds.  A coyote, bear, cat and now wolves do not have the ability or the desire to choose what should or needs to be harvested to maintain healthy herds.  Predators are out of control in this state and soon to become worse with introduction of the wolf.  I also read one article about a guy who managed a ranch in South Carolina.  He kept coyote numbers down by trapping and shooting them.  In his article he observed from scat and stomach contents that the coyotes main and practically only source of food during the fawning season was deer.  Both does and fawns are very vunerable at birthing time and very easy for a predator to find.  Anyone that has raised livestock can tell you what coyotes can do to birthing animals!  Now factor in bears, cats and now wolves and figure out what is going to happen to all our game animals.  Game management is not a secret nor needs much science and studies put to it in this state.  Neighboring Idaho has a firearm whitetail season that is that is 7 weeks long with 30 days of it being either sex.  Idaho is taking a very aggressive roll in wolf management.  Other states have successfull management plans that can be adapted to Washington.  Do some research on the internet on deer management and by all means read some of Dr. Deers information.  It is very interesting.  In the mean time I will post some interesting links later.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

"Science is learned by conducting controlled experiments, if you don't experiment you will never learn anything new."

In that case, you should be happy with the wolf experiment.

[Dhoey07]

Although you do have control over your sample size

[blackveltbowhunter]

"Science is learned by conducting controlled experiments, if you don't experiment you will never learn anything new."

In that case, you should be happy with the wolf experiment.

Except its no longer an experiment. We can draw some conclusions.

[buckfvr]

Muleyguy so what would you really like to see happen. Shut the area down keep hunting it and kill everything since you don't think this will work.

what I would like to see is a draw only for the entire State;  that way you can manage the herd, age structure, and buck to doe ratio how it needs to be handled for this State, given its high population base, small land base and large amounts of predators and periodic winter kills;  in the long run, that is the only answer;

The last 20 yrs of management in this State has been focused on open general tags with no restrictions on hunter numbers;  and, when the population gets into trouble we run to APR's;  the populations still doesn't recover, and they continually shorten the season to get better buck escapement.  Problem is, without corresponding cuts in tags, it just forces more hunters into the unit in those given days;

the result is high hunter pressure, no better buck escapement, and extremely poor quality of experience;  If you restricted tag numbers enough to get a 1/3 reduction in buck harvest you could lengthen out the season dramatically, have much better age structure, increase buck to doe ratio's, and provide a high quality experience;  all this, for basically giving up the right to hunt 1 out of 3 years;

Those are the kind of hard decisions that need to be made to recover our deer herds;   this idea in this state that it is a god given right for everybody to hunt every year is driving the quality of the hunting and the quality of the experience into the toilet!

Our mule deer seasons are down to 9 days in the middle of October with APR's and there are literally 10,000 of thousands of hunters in the field at the same time;  with a 20% success rate on 2.5 yr old 18" basket racked 2x3 being the avg harvest. 

The end result of the APR's in 117 and 121 will be that they will be with us forever;  and, not too far down the road, you will end up losing the late season in these units also;  That is the legacy of APR's in this state.  You will lose the late season because there will be too much pressure on the mature buck population.

Project forward 20 yrs when your grandkids are hunting.......there will be hundreds of thousands of more people in this state, more hunting pressure, more encroachment into the rural areas by people putting more pressure on habitat, more poaching, etc.   Does anybody here honestly think we are going to be to continue this "management" of just letting everybody hunt and no restrictions on tag levels??

Were going to be down to 5 day seasons at this pace!!

How about this for an idea:

1.  1/3 less tags;  resulting in getting to hunt 2 out of 3 yrs
2.  4 week deer season from mid october until the 1st week of november
3.  No APR's;

something along these lines would boost the herd,  spread out the hunting pressure, and would increase the experience exponentially from what it is now.

Imagine bringing your kids and family out hunting 2 out of 3 years, seeing lots of bucks, seeing good numbers of mature bucks, having much fewer people in the woods, and lots of weekends to choose from to take them hunting and spend time;  and, your son or daughter, or your 75 yr old grandfather can actually have a better then 2% chance of harvesting a buck.

Contrast that with what we have now, where sure, we get to go hunting every year, but we have  drastically shortened seasons in the Middle of october with unlimited amounts of people (idiots) running all over in the field, and, almost no chance of success for your son or daughter or 75 yr old grandfather;  Bucks getting shot out from underneath you, people cutting you off, camping in your spot, etc, etc   

The bottom line is in this State, we have choosen to try and use APR's and shortened seasons so everybody can continue to hunt unrestricted;  this has been going on for some time, and the herds continue to struggle, and the quality of the experience continues to decline.  These are failed policies;   its time to go another direction:  fewer tags, longer seasons, no APR's

your trying to put a band-aid on a heart attack...................

SO....less hunters, longer season, higher success, which obviously to you equals better experience......with higher success, it might just be wed see the same number of deer killed each year by fewer hunters.....back to starting line...... this whole idea is unfounded and mere speculation....sounds good to some, not so good to others.  Im glad you're not the boss.

[bearpaw]

"Science is learned by conducting controlled experiments, if you don't experiment you will never learn anything new."

In that case, you should be happy with the wolf experiment.

That was a clever try Sitka.... 

Let me say this about the "wolf experiment":  Wolves are no longer an experiment. It has been documented in Alaska and Canada that unregulated wolf populations destroy moose and caribou herds. It has been documented in the lower 48 that unregulated wolf populations destroy elk/deer/moose populations.

Wolves are no longer an experiment, the proof is in, wolf numbers must be heavily managed to prevent the destruction of the very herds "they" and "we" depend on.

[Maverick]

Muley guy you act like because there is an Apr every mature buck will be ed and there will be nothing left but 1.5 year old bucks. Not true. According to you all the nice bucks we shot were 3.5 year olds. We saw some others the same size meaning theyll be 4.5 next year. Just cause there is an apr and hunters have to be concentrated on older bucks doesn't mean all the older bucks get shot. Not every one tags out and those bucks don't get older by being stupid. There's even plenty of 2.5 year olds that make it to be 3.5 years old this year. The Apr works. The herds wouldn't be able to handle any deer. And why would anybody wabt to hunt 2 out of three here's. A better percentage of hunters would probly tag out but I'm not out there to just tag out. Im out there to hunt.

[Fowlweather25]

I agree with muley guy! Look at Nevada! Draw only and friggin deer everywhere! First two deer I killed were in NV, my family still hunts northern Nevada! The deer hunting is spectacular down there! Again draw only!

[buckfvr]

Only one type of deer, different eco system, less hunters.....totally different scenario, none of which applies here, plus, you can always move there............

[bearpaw]

As an Idaho and Washington outfitter, I hear all the time how great the hunting is, I get phone calls from hunters in states like Arizona or Nevada all the time, "We just want to go hunting, we can't draw a tag in our state." and they book a trip in Idaho or Washington.

If muleyguy gets his way, then you all can all go to Idaho to hunt when you can't get a tag in Washington. Even with all the great deer herds those other states like Nev & AZ have, residents get to hunt roughly once every 2 to 6 years. Nevada hunters are some of my best clients becuase they rarely get to hunt at home.

Just food for thought before you jump on the limited-entry bandwagon.... some limited-entry is good, but it can really suck too.

[bearpaw]

I dont think that would happen..alot of guys hunt for bucks only... then some want to meat in the freezer and blast a young buck on the last weekend when many would shoot a doe instead if they had the choice. ID has been very liberal with their whitetail seasons and the herd does just fine in ID..hunting pressure less? maybe alot of public land to be hunted there as opposed to a ton of private land here in NE WA

Eastman's did a survey of hunter satisfaction with western big game management, Idaho came in a distant last place.

[Fowlweather25]

I guess I don't understand how having apr for and extended amount of time breeds quality bucks? The only buck you can kill are the ones that need to be alive and breeding! Thatsvwhy when you go on a MANAGEMENT hunt you're only allowed to kill up to a certain sized buck, because the right thing to do is keep the big mature bucks in the breeding cycle and manage the smaller odd balls and genetically lacking bucks as well as the old dried up bucks.

[KopperBuck]

I dont think that would happen..alot of guys hunt for bucks only... then some want to meat in the freezer and blast a young buck on the last weekend when many would shoot a doe instead if they had the choice. ID has been very liberal with their whitetail seasons and the herd does just fine in ID..hunting pressure less? maybe alot of public land to be hunted there as opposed to a ton of private land here in NE WA

Eastman's did a survey of hunter satisfaction with western big game management, Idaho came in a distant last place.

Would this be to their recent price hike? Oregon and Washington are soon to follow. Washington is rarely on Eastman's radar anyways...