Four point minimum 117&121

[C-Money]

My family in PA sees more 1.5 year old bucks through the seasons.. We/they see quite a few bucks every season now with APR. My family has only killed one buck since the APR. It was a dandy, but one buck in 10 years is not good. I really dont know how to feel about APR, hunting was a lot more fun to me before APR cause it was nice to see the family harvest a few bucks. We are also seeing giant 2pts and 3pts that are not legal where we hunt. What a mess.

[Miles]

If I could blow this thread up into 1 million tiny little pieces floating throughout cyberspace...I would.

Unfortunately for the rest of you, I can't.

Miles, there must be 3 or 4 others just like it too....

I know there are, and unfortunately I was involved with them.

I have for the most part avoided this one.

I guess if I ever get tired of hearing new things I could always come back and read a page from this thread.  Repetition, repetition, repetition....

[Miles]

If I could blow this thread up into 1 million tiny little pieces floating throughout cyberspace...I would.

Unfortunately for the rest of you, I can't.

Ah what would be the fun in that? What's a message board without any messages?   

A better question to ask would be:  What's a message board with the same messages for 17 pages?
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Answer:   LAME

[Sitka_Blacktail]

I used to be opposed to APR in our area, but due to our continual decline of deer numbers I was totally in favor of it at the current time to prevent further decline in the herd.

BearPaw, we both know there was no "continued decline" in deer numbers. As you have said yourself, it was two back to back bad winters. The deer have always come back from this. And they were coming back without this rule.  When I hunted in your area this year, I met a lot of hunters and they all told me one thing. Hunting had been down for a couple years because of the aforementioned bad winters, but that last year it had come back a bit and this year it had come back even more.  Harvest stats in the units around 117 and 121 will undoubtedly show that.

One other thought that hasn't been mentioned...... This year buck harvest will be down in 117 and 121 for a couple obvious reasons. #1 With the antler restrictions, there were less legal bucks to harvest. #2 Because of #1, many people chose to hunt in other units.

But...... Next year those units will probably attract more effort than in the past because of those young bucks you stockpiled.  So there could be a lot more pressure on the older bucks than there was pre APR.  Even if the success rate is lower, the actual harvest could be higher, again meaning fewer bucks getting older.

For example, say 2,000 hunters have a 22% success rate in a unit. That means 440 deer are taken.  But say because there are supposed to be more "big" bucks in the unit it attracts 3000 hunters but they only have a 15% success rate. That equates to 450 deer taken.  Maybe the first year it might be 18%. That would be 540 deer taken.  It's easy to see that such a scenario could actually reduce the number of older mature bucks than increase it.  Unless you are happy calling 2 1/2 year old bucks "mature"

[Sitka_Blacktail]

My family in PA sees more 1.5 year old bucks through the seasons.. We/they see quite a few bucks every season now with APR. My family has only killed one buck since the APR. It was a dandy, but one buck in 10 years is not good. I really dont know how to feel about APR, hunting was a lot more fun to me before APR cause it was nice to see the family harvest a few bucks. We are also seeing giant 2pts and 3pts that are not legal where we hunt. What a mess.

And there you see the results.  Just like some of us have predicted will happen here.  Lots of young bucks and larger but nonlegal bucks (possibly caused by genetically selecting the trait for more antler points out of the gene pool) but fewer large and legal bucks.  Stockpiling young and nonlegal deer at the expense of Mature bucks.

[Sitka_Blacktail]

A better question to ask would be:  What's a message board with the same messages for 17 pages?

Answer:   LAME

And yet you keep returning and adding to it.  Go figure?? 

[bobcat]

If I could blow this thread up into 1 million tiny little pieces floating throughout cyberspace...I would.

Unfortunately for the rest of you, I can't.

Ah what would be the fun in that? What's a message board without any messages?   

A better question to ask would be:  What's a message board with the same messages for 17 pages?
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.
.
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Answer:   LAME

Why do you click on it then?   

[Miles]

If I could blow this thread up into 1 million tiny little pieces floating throughout cyberspace...I would.

Unfortunately for the rest of you, I can't.

Ah what would be the fun in that? What's a message board without any messages?   

A better question to ask would be:  What's a message board with the same messages for 17 pages?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Answer:   LAME

Why do you click on it then?   

It's like a train wreck....you have to look.

[Maverick]

South east Washington has been Apr since like the early 90s. There's some nice bucks around. And instead of everyone shooting tiny spikes they're getting bigger bodied 3 points or bigger. Anyone that can't kill a buck either missed their chance, passed the buck up, or isnt looking in the right spot. ive lived here for all my life. And after seasons Still see great 150 class and bigger mulies and whitetail. I think its all the seasons that hurt the herds. Not the APRs. Obviously if Apr was so bad then there wouldn't be any older bucks. Yet we have them? They didn't get that old.being stupid. They're sneaky and they lay low during hunting season. The only problem I've ever seen was some big muley 2 points. So in those areas give out some special permits or let youth hunt them.

[bearpaw]

I used to be opposed to APR in our area, but due to our continual decline of deer numbers I was totally in favor of it at the current time to prevent further decline in the herd.

BearPaw, we both know there was no "continued decline" in deer numbers. As you have said yourself, it was two back to back bad winters. The deer have always come back from this. And they were coming back without this rule.  When I hunted in your area this year, I met a lot of hunters and they all told me one thing. Hunting had been down for a couple years because of the aforementioned bad winters, but that last year it had come back a bit and this year it had come back even more.  Harvest stats in the units around 117 and 121 will undoubtedly show that.

One other thought that hasn't been mentioned...... This year buck harvest will be down in 117 and 121 for a couple obvious reasons. #1 With the antler restrictions, there were less legal bucks to harvest. #2 Because of #1, many people chose to hunt in other units.

But...... Next year those units will probably attract more effort than in the past because of those young bucks you stockpiled.  So there could be a lot more pressure on the older bucks than there was pre APR.  Even if the success rate is lower, the actual harvest could be higher, again meaning fewer bucks getting older.

For example, say 2,000 hunters have a 22% success rate in a unit. That means 440 deer are taken.  But say because there are supposed to be more "big" bucks in the unit it attracts 3000 hunters but they only have a 15% success rate. That equates to 450 deer taken.  Maybe the first year it might be 18%. That would be 540 deer taken.  It's easy to see that such a scenario could actually reduce the number of older mature bucks than increase it.  Unless you are happy calling 2 1/2 year old bucks "mature"

Sorry Sitka, you are absolutely wrong. Please show me your data to prove numbers were up the last two years, that's right, you can't because it wasn't.   

[Dhoey07]

I used to be opposed to APR in our area, but due to our continual decline of deer numbers I was totally in favor of it at the current time to prevent further decline in the herd.

BearPaw, we both know there was no "continued decline" in deer numbers. As you have said yourself, it was two back to back bad winters. The deer have always come back from this. And they were coming back without this rule.  When I hunted in your area this year, I met a lot of hunters and they all told me one thing. Hunting had been down for a couple years because of the aforementioned bad winters, but that last year it had come back a bit and this year it had come back even more.  Harvest stats in the units around 117 and 121 will undoubtedly show that.

One other thought that hasn't been mentioned...... This year buck harvest will be down in 117 and 121 for a couple obvious reasons. #1 With the antler restrictions, there were less legal bucks to harvest. #2 Because of #1, many people chose to hunt in other units.

But...... Next year those units will probably attract more effort than in the past because of those young bucks you stockpiled.  So there could be a lot more pressure on the older bucks than there was pre APR.  Even if the success rate is lower, the actual harvest could be higher, again meaning fewer bucks getting older.

For example, say 2,000 hunters have a 22% success rate in a unit. That means 440 deer are taken.  But say because there are supposed to be more "big" bucks in the unit it attracts 3000 hunters but they only have a 15% success rate. That equates to 450 deer taken.  Maybe the first year it might be 18%. That would be 540 deer taken.  It's easy to see that such a scenario could actually reduce the number of older mature bucks than increase it.  Unless you are happy calling 2 1/2 year old bucks "mature"

That would make sense, but buck to doe ratios are way down

[Maverick]

Sitka, do you hunt these areas?

[Sitka_Blacktail]

BearPaw, we both know there was no "continued decline" in deer numbers. As you have said yourself, it was two back to back bad winters. The deer have always come back from this. And they were coming back without this rule.  When I hunted in your area this year, I met a lot of hunters and they all told me one thing. Hunting had been down for a couple years because of the aforementioned bad winters, but that last year it had come back a bit and this year it had come back even more.  Harvest stats in the units around 117 and 121 will undoubtedly show that.

Sorry Sitka, you are absolutely wrong. Please show me your data to prove numbers were up the last two years, that's right, you can't because it wasn't.   

Year........09.......................10
Unit
105.......330.....................280 bucks harvested  going  down
108.......273.....................333 bucks harvested  going up
111.......312.....................361 bucks harvested  going up
113.......300....................364 bucks harvested  going up
117.......857....................912 bucks harvested  going up
121.....1242..................1254 bucks harvested  going up
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
...........3314..................3504  total bucks harvested in 09 and 10 respectively.


Here's the source    http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/index.html

So in 5 of the 6 units in the NE corner, harvests improved slightly from 2009 to 2010. We'll have to wait to see about 2011 when the report comes out. But from the success guys were having where I was hunting, I don't doubt that it went up again.

Now that might not be close to the all time highs but, it sure compares favorably to 1997 when this was the harvest in that area. And the herd recovered from 1997 without any APRs.

...............1997..............
unit
105..........134 bucks harvested
109..........369 bucks harvested (108 and 111 combined)
111..........176 bucks harvested
117..........538 bucks harvested
121..........963 bucks harvested
----------------------------------------
..............2180 bucks harvested for the area in 1997

So 09 and 10 harvests were still 50% higher than in 1997 and the herd recovered quite nicely after 1997.  What was the emergency that required a change from the system that brought the herd back then?

[muleyguy]

What was the emergency that required a change from the system that brought the herd back then?

because they learned one of the golden rules in politics (which applies here also) which is:

"Never let a good disaster go to waste"

George Bush used it well after 911 to go after Iraq and finish what his dad started and have a permenant presence in the middle east;  Obama used it well after the 2008 financial crisis to expand the role of govt and spending to previously unheard of levels


can't get an APR in when things are going well.........look how contentious it was even when the herd is hurting.........

and, more importantly, the scientific bar gets lowered tremendously........

the scientific bar is now this:  "well, we really have no idea if it is going to work, we have no data to back up what we are proposing, and how are you going to know if we never try it?"

[huntnnw]

And its only 2 damn units in the whole state! and for whiteys that most on here dont wanna hunt. who cares...see if it works