308 or 30/06?

[cabin308]

b/c its a nato round, or thats the best i could tell.. i believe the 308 came around b/c they wanted 06 power in a smaller case, less brass, less money.

Possibly because less brass=less weight?  Allows for more ammo/person to be carried on the battlefield.
Anyhow, to get on the thread topic, his scenario is best suited for the lever 308.  I vote with MikeXRay and Curly. 

Sounds like you made your decision but this is the exact scenario that the 308 was designed for. It is simply a shorter round that works well in a lever action. Give you much faster follow up shots. The hunting you described screams the 308. The 308 is not the caliber the 30-06 is and wasn't intended to compete with it ever, just to fill its own niche. Go with the heavier bullet, round nose for good expansion at short range.

I can't believe that so many people suggest the 30-06 rifle.  He has an 06 in bolt action and the .308 is a lever action.  For me, I'd much prefer the lever action for the type of cover he is talking about........brushy w/ shots from 50 - 100 yards.  The Savage would be much lighter and easier to get on target for a quick shot.

[Wacenturion]

Some info from seaching around the net....


Let’s take a quick look at the history of the 7.62 NATO and .308 Winchester.   In the early 50’s, the US Government was working on a cartridge to replace the 30/06.  The US was wedded to the .30 caliber bore diameter, or, in metric designation, 7.62 mm (Note.2).  They wanted a round both shorter and lighter, but with the same power as the longer, heavier & bulkier 30/06.  Research proceeded and the end result was the “T-65” cartridge (later renamed 7.62 NATO).   So, how were the specifications achieved in a case 0.479-inch shorter then the 30/06?  Newly designed ball powder and hotter primers account for the retention of velocity in the shorter case. The working pressure for the 30/06 and the 7.62 NATO are virtually identical. 

 

The US lobbied hard with its NATO allies to adopt the new 7.62 cartridge as standard.  Ammunition standardization makes sense, and in the end; NATO nations adopted the 7.62 NATO round (Note.3).   

 

Winchester, recognizing that any round adopted in mass by a group of countries would almost automatically become very popular, adopted the T65 / 7.62 NATO round and called their version the .308 Winchester.  However, they are not identical twins.                                                                           

 

There are headspace differences between the two rounds.  The .308 go-gauge is 1.6300, the .308 no go-gauge is 1.6340.  The 7.62 go-gauge is 1.6350, the 7.62 no go-gauge is 1.6405.   Since NATO military ammunition can come from any NATO country, and the goal is the ability to interchange ammunition, the military chamber is larger.                   

 

Provided we use common sense, headspace differences shouldn’t cause us to quake in fear.  If a person is using new, Mil-Surp ammunition; and not reloading it, then the headspace becomes a non-issue.  The round is fired and expended.         

[jeff100]

Everybody has been dancing around the real difference between the .308 Winchester and the .30-06 Springfield.  All things being equal, the '06 will be a superior caliber with heavier .30 cal bullets, the heavier the bullet, the better the '06 will perform over the .308.  With 150 grain bullets, there's not enough difference to call one better than the other IMO.  According to my Lee reloading manual, the .308 Win has a useful case capacity of 3.43 cc, the .30-06 Sprg has a useful case capacity of 4.38 cc, a difference of 21.7 percent of capacity.  That's a lot.  More powder pushes a heavier bullet faster, farther.

I'm facing the exact same scenario and decision for black bear this year.  I'm hoping to call in a bear with a cub squall call.  I'm new to calling, but if this works as I think it will, the bear will come in fast and aggressive.  At least it will if it's the kind of large dominate boar I'm looking for.  I need a rifle I can aim and shoot in a hurry in thick cover.

Here's how it plays out in my mind.  For west side hunting in heavy cover for black bears, I'm choosing my Savage 99 in .308.  I've recently pulled the scope off this rifle and installed a good rear peep sight for just this kind of hunting.  With this setup, this is the perfect rifle for close quarters in thick cover for potentially dangerous game.  I trust this rifle with these sights and my ability out to approx. 200 yards with a good rest, but this is really my short range heavy cover rifle.  I can get on target faster with the peep sight than I ever could with a scope when speed counts.  Have you ever noticed that hunters in Africa hunting dangerous game in thick cover, you don't ever see a scope on a rifle?!  Open sights will never be fogged up or set on 9X when you're faced with a 30 yard snap shot.

Now everybody has been touting heavy bullets for the .308 Win, and that's fine, you'll get no real argument from me within reason and especially at short range.  But the reality is, bullet weight is just one factor.  Velocity plays a big role as well.  The .308 Win has only so much case capacity for powder.  According to my Sierra reloading manual (3rd addition), a 150 grain bullet loaded to max load will exit the barrel at approx 2900 feet per second for a energy rating of 2801 foot pounds.  2801 ft/lbs is the key number here.  Max load for a 165 grain bullet = 2700 fps @ 2670 ft/lbs., 180 grain 2600 fps @ 2701 ft/lbs., 200 grain 2450 fps @ 2665 ft/lbs..  One could argue that the heavier bullets may retain slightly more energy at distance than lighter bullets.  I don't know if that argument is valid, I suspect it is not.  What I DO know is at the muzzle, the 150 grain bullet has the most energy and IMO, the increased recoil of the heavier bullets in this caliber is not justified by the performance assuming a well designed hunting bullet is used.

My '06 is set up with a Burris scope with the ranging reticle.  If I'm hunting open country, that's the rifle I'd go to no questions asked.  I use this rifle for big big game or tough big game that is just too much for my .260 Rem.  I've shot this caliber for many many years and trust it implicitly if I do my part.  I used to have a .300 Win Mag, and that was a hell of a good caliber.  If I still desired to shoot big game beyond 400 yards, I'd still have it.  But these days, I like to get closer because to me, that's called hunting (or stalking anyway), so the Win Mag is gone.

Now I'll tell ya, my first black bear was shot with another '06 I had at the time with a fairly hot 180 grain (Hornady SP) handload.  I shot that bear just behind the shoulder, the bullet took out one shoulder, the heart and exited out the other side breaking a rib in the process.  That bear still ran full speed about 70 yards before it piled up, groaned for a couple of minutes and then expired.  In my experience, bears are tough critters requiring good shot placement with a well designed bullet.  A well designed bullet may be the most important factor of all.  It's very important to me, and with a well designed hunting bullet, I'm more than comfortable shooting a 150 grain bullets in my .308 for bears...

Jeff

[MountainWalk]

Now everybody has been touting heavy bullets for the .308 Win, and that's fine, you'll get no real argument from me within reason and especially at short range.  But the reality is, bullet weight is just one factor.  Velocity plays a big role as well.  The .308 Win has only so much case capacity for powder.  According to my Sierra reloading manual (3rd addition), a 150 grain bullet loaded to max load will exit the barrel at approx 2900 feet per second for a energy rating of 2801 foot pounds.  2801 ft/lbs is the key number here.  Max load for a 165 grain bullet = 2700 fps @ 2670 ft/lbs., 180 grain 2600 fps @ 2701 ft/lbs., 200 grain 2450 fps @ 2665 ft/lbs..  One could argue that the heavier bullets may retain slightly more energy at distance than lighter bullets.  I don't know if that argument is valid, I suspect it is not.  What I DO know is at the muzzle, the 150 grain bullet has the most energy and IMO, the inreased recoil of the heavier bullets in this caliber is not justified by the performance assuming a well designed hunting bullet is used.
Jeff

   

a rebuttal, or, "the other side of the coin."

Expanding bullets create permanent wound channels up to three times the size of bullet's final expanded diameter. That being said, heavy for caliber  expanding bullets have the ability to expand to a larger final diameter than lighter ones of the same caliber.
But what is interesting is that the loads or cartidges that produce the most muzzle energy are not necessarily the most effective on game. In alot of cases, even with premium bullets, high velocity bullets hitting game very very colse results in poor results.

To most hunters, the idea of more muzzle energy means more killing power. Muzzle energy is just a measure, theoretically, of a bullet's ability to cause damage. But, what many hunters dont remember is, that bullets in flight have two physical properties. Energy, and momentum.

The more momentum a moving object has, the harder it is for that object to stop, or to be stopped. So for hunting this means heavy for caliber, long  high sectional density bullets at moderate speeds. All this means one thing, penetration. No penetration, no dead animal.

This next bit of info comes from Dr. Kevin Robertson, an accomplished African PH, and animal vet.

"im sure many big game hunters do not realize that different projectiles inflight can contain similar amounts of energy but have differing momentum values.
the 404 jeffery fires a 400 grain bullet at 2150fps, a ballistic combo that creates 4000 foot pouns of muzzle energy and a momentum value of 123 pounds feet per second. the 375hh fires a 300 grain bullet at 2500fps. this is good for a similar amount of muzzle energy, but only creates 107 pounds feet per second of momentum. now, if it were possible to fire a 40 grain aspirin at 6800fps, it too would possess 4000 foot pounds of muzzle energy, but it would only have 39 pounds feet per second of momentum. how these three would perform on game should be obvious, yet all have the same amount of muzzle energy. the 404 is the most effective.

caliber   bullet weight   sectional density  Muzzle vel     muzzle energy  mm lbs-fps    ko value
375       270               .275                   2600              4053              100             38
375       300               .305                   2500              4164              107             40
375       330               .335                   2400              4222              113             42
375       350               .356                   2300              4110              115             43
375       380               .386                   2200              4080              119             45
375       400               .407                   2125              4010              121             46


another of his tables

cartridge     bullet weight-SD- velocity- ME ft lbs   Mm lbs-fps   recoil energy   ko value
375HH          380            .386    2200      4080       119               40                45
375RUM        300            .305    2750      5040       118               49                44
375WBY        300            .305    2900       5604       124             62                 47

all are based on a ten pounds rifle.

So its intersting to note that increasing velocity to improve momentum and ko values is not the best way to go about things. Granted, it increases muzzle energy, but at the price of more recoil and muzzle blast.
In my own exp and watching others while shooting at game,, heavier bullets in any given caliber give the best results.. Hence my fondness of 220 grain bullets in the 30-06, and the 250 grain 338 bullet.

Happy hunting and shooting.
375       

[257 Wby Mag]

sell em both and get a 585 Nayati, Ross Seyfrieds baby. The Western Washington grizz can be tough. grin...

The .585 Nyati is a shoulder-fired rifle cartridge. Nyati (n-ya-te) means Cape Buffalo in many African languages such as Swahili. The .585 Nyati can generate 10,000 lb·ft (13,600 N·m) of muzzle energy. This places it at or near the top of the list for most powerful cartridges that can be chambered in a rifle that can still be carried afield.

[Intruder]

For crimeny sakes.  Based on the original question (shooting a bear  at close range) there's gonna be 0 difference in the effectiveness between a 308 and a 30-06.  The bear will die equally well assuming a good shot is made.   

[CP]

 

Yep, either one will blow a hole clean through the animal and expend most of its energy on the landscape beyond.

[KillBilly]

I have a savage model 99 in 308 and a springfield 30/06 but im not sure which one would be better for bears. I can shoot both of these rifles very well and will be hunting in thick timber where shots range from 50 to 100 yards. Which rifle would you think is best suitable?

After all of this, I sure hope you let us know what your decision is. The curiosity is killing me.

[Curly]

For crimeny sakes.  Based on the original question (shooting a bear  at close range) there's gonna be 0 difference in the effectiveness between a 308 and a 30-06.  The bear will die equally well assuming a good shot is made.

Exactly!  Therefore, take the rifle that is lighter, quicker to get on target, and is quicker for follow-up shots..............in this case, that rifle is the .308.

Jeff100 nailed it IMO.

[Curly]

KillBilly, he did say "Thanks guys, it looks like I will probably go with the 308.  Its quite abit lighter too so that should be an advantage".  That was on page 1, about 6 posts down or so.  But he hasn't stated what bullet he plans to use. 

I assume that he doesn't reload, so I suggested a 180 gr bullet in case he ended up with some cheap factory ammo (like Winchester Power Points).......and at 180 gr out of the .308, the velocity should be relatively slow and the bullet should hold together well at lower velocities even if it is a cheaper bullet.  And he did say 100 yards max, so trajectory isn't an issue out to that range.   

I do agree with Jeff100 however, on his suggestion about using 150 gr bullets in the .308.........as long as they are premium bullets like Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, A-frame, or Barnes TSX.  Bullets over 180 gr aren't really necessary in this case and probably are hard to find in a factory box of .308 ammo.