nile paper says muck's shot 140+/- deer last weekend?

[Elkslayer]

The problem is not the Treaty, the problem is todays society. Trophy hunting has become more and more popular over the years. Today everybody wants the biggest buck or bull on the mountain. Our fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers didn’t hunt for horns back in the day. They hunted for meat because they needed it to survive, same as the natives. Sure, if a big buck or bull was the first opportunity they had they would shoot it. Not because of the size of its antlers but because it presented them with the opportunity to harvest some meat. Just like todays meat hunters, they will take the first opportunity they have to fill the freezer. I know a lot of old timers that have some very impressive racks just laying around out in the barn or an old storage shed or even tacked up on the barn and are now cracked and bleached out beyond repair. It wasn’t a popularity contest back then and it still isn’t for them. A lot of these old racks that were taken back in the 40’s or 50’s that are surfacing today are being showed off by their sons or grandsons, or some trophy collector.

I don’t think there is any one of us on here that could say that if we had the opportunity to go and legally shoot one of those big Hanford bulls that we would not do it. (I know I would have) Did the native that shot it have the legal right to do so? Yes! Did he shoot it because he needed the meat or because it was one of the biggest and most popular bulls in the state? I personally don’t know this guy so I cannot say for certain, but I am led to believe that it was because of the later. If he was hunting for meat why did he not go to an area that he has hunted in the past that was a lot closer to home where he had a much greater opportunity instead of taking a trip and going after a bull, or bulls that are very rarely in an area where they can be shot?

So my opinion is this! There are a few, like this guy that are abusing the system and making it look bad for everyone else. Just like the non-natives have a few that abuse the system.

The problem is this guy is using the treaty to his advantage, this makes him legal. Is this what the treaty was meant for?  No! Is that what his forefathers had in mind when the treaty was signed? No! The only way any of this will stop is if the Tribes step up and put a stop to it themselves.  The problem is they do nothing and it makes them as a whole look bad.

[igotbigbulls]

dont know about the ak47 thing. never heard about it.  winter feeding stations werent always feeding stations. unethical hunting and poaching are two different things. if someone wants to drive up in the middle of the day and shoot a big bull in a feeding station. very unethical in my book.

Oh I'm sorry I thought you wanted to compare the way different people hunted in this state. Winter feed stations weren't always there...that is your best answer for those pukes "hunting" there?

never once said it was right. what more you want me to say? your a funny character RC. punish for the crime. not saying ones who do stuff like that shouldnt be punished if they are breaking the law.

[buck man]

Hey i have an idea!!! Lets all camo up and meet at say the obsevatory unit or maybe little naches and bring our paint guns,,  divide into two teams and end this thread with a little paint ball action! After that we could go to naches and buy each otber a round and laugh about our "war wounds" and make treaties that we will do this everytime one these threads comes up.   any takers?

[PlateauNDN]

I'm game I love the observatory but, only as long as colock admits there are no elk here and they're all in the colockum. Lol!  And the hanford thread was photoshopped all those bulls are colockum bulls!

[colockumelk]

Colock ill make this short and sweet.  Do I agree or like that the fines and penalties are lesser?  NO.  Do I agree they should be stricter?  YES.  Do I believe they are discriminatory?  NO, because I nor anybody else on here wrote them or had a say in writing them.  Our Tribal Councils from the past determined the level of punishments long ago and the present day Tribal Council Members are the only ones who can change it.

The issue I see coming over and over again is the penalties.  Would a non-tribal member doing the same thing get the maximum amount?  Probably not, because the standards range is based off criminal history.

Take the young man from montesano who was posted on here for poaching "killing" in other words over a 100 big game animals in a month and got 5 months?  Do I believe that was tough enough?  NO.  Is it going to stop him or deter anybody?  NO, it just makes them a little more cautious and if their going to break the law they will do it regardless the punishment.

So yes the problem isn't isolated and can't be solved overnight and all our bickering is going to continue.

One I agree with everything you said. Two I think poaching penalties are not nearly strict enough. I also think that penalties and fines should not ne different based on skin color. If a tribal member poaches a sheep on state land he should get the same punishment as a non-tribal member. It's not that way and its BS. Pure and simple.

And YAK did not have a good point. If I poached an animal in Oregon and a guy from Portland poached the same animal in Oregon we both get the same penalty. Jail time of 180 days, $3K fine and loss of hinting privelages for life along with the felony. If you do so you get a $1K fine and can't hunt for a year. Now how is that anywhere close to being  fair? How is that right. Answer its not.  Again preferential treatment based on race.
 
And this has nothing to do with hunting. This has to do with commiting a crime. If you commit the crime you should do the same time.  I'm curious to know I thought if a tribal member commited a crime off the reservation than they were subject to tje same laws I am bound by. And I'm not saying tribal hunting is a crime.  I mean DUIs, driving with a loaded firearm, poaching a sheep, murder, theft etc.

[BeeMan]

The problem is not the Treaty, the problem is todays society. Trophy hunting has become more and more popular over the years. Today everybody wants the biggest buck or bull on the mountain. Our fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers didn’t hunt for horns back in the day. They hunted for meat because they needed it to survive, same as the natives. Sure, if a big buck or bull was the first opportunity they had they would shoot it. Not because of the size of its antlers but because it presented them with the opportunity to harvest some meat. Just like todays meat hunters, they will take the first opportunity they have to fill the freezer. I know a lot of old timers that have some very impressive racks just laying around out in the barn or an old storage shed or even tacked up on the barn and are now cracked and bleached out beyond repair. It wasn’t a popularity contest back then and it still isn’t for them. A lot of these old racks that were taken back in the 40’s or 50’s that are surfacing today are being showed off by their sons or grandsons, or some trophy collector.

I don’t think there is any one of us on here that could say that if we had the opportunity to go and legally shoot one of those big Hanford bulls that we would not do it. (I know I would have) Did the native that shot it have the legal right to do so? Yes! Did he shoot it because he needed the meat or because it was one of the biggest and most popular bulls in the state? I personally don’t know this guy so I cannot say for certain, but I am led to believe that it was because of the later. If he was hunting for meat why did he not go to an area that he has hunted in the past that was a lot closer to home where he had a much greater opportunity instead of taking a trip and going after a bull, or bulls that are very rarely in an area where they can be shot?

So my opinion is this! There are a few, like this guy that are abusing the system and making it look bad for everyone else. Just like the non-natives have a few that abuse the system.

The problem is this guy is using the treaty to his advantage, this makes him legal. Is this what the treaty was meant for?  No! Is that what his forefathers had in mind when the treaty was signed? No! The only way any of this will stop is if the Tribes step up and put a stop to it themselves.  The problem is they do nothing and it makes them as a whole look bad.

   Probably the best reply ive read in this thread!

[BeeMan]

Hey i have an idea!!! Lets all camo up and meet at say the obsevatory unit or maybe little naches and bring our paint guns,,  divide into two teams and end this thread with a little paint ball action! After that we could go to naches and buy each otber a round and laugh about our "war wounds" and make treaties that we will do this everytime one these threads comes up.   any takers?

Sign me up, but I get first shot at u buckman and I get to freeze my paintballs first!!

[igotbigbulls]

 colock. you act like you know what the penalties are for everything...you may, but you maximize everything. a first time offender will not face the same penalties someone who has a past. and yak did have a good point. different states different laws different penalties. i unfortunatly personally know a poacher who used to be a friend who was busted for poaching 8 years ago. who now is able to hunt again. washington state hunter, non tribal member. so dont act like its a lifetime ban from hunting. because its not. a crime is a crime and it has nothing to do with race it has to do with the laws!

ps. lets meet them there for the paintball war and talk man to man. i think i could reason a little better face to face. and then have a beer. but i can take a rain check for when you make it back to wa

[dartondude]

If the Natives are allowed to harvest game/fish levels higher than the rest of society, they should be restricted to the same harvest methods used before European settlement..(i.e., stick and a string).

the numbers for harvest arent even close. do your homework.

yeah, b/c there aren't nearly as many natives as white hunters. I meant per person.  I know a guy from the Chehalis tribe who gets 4 or 5  blacktails a year.

[igotbigbulls]

i run through an elk and a couple deer a year and i feed four. but i eat alot of fish too.

[longknife]

Hey i have an idea!!! Lets all camo up and meet at say the obsevatory unit or maybe little naches and bring our paint guns,,  divide into two teams and end this thread with a little paint ball action! After that we could go to naches and buy each otber a round and laugh about our "war wounds" and make treaties that we will do this everytime one these threads comes up.   any takers?

Sign me up, but I get first shot at u buckman and I get to freeze my paintballs first!!

Im game!! And Gobstoppers is the ammo for me!!!

[huntandjeep]

$1000 fine and 1 year lost rights for the first offense dosent seem right. 4 of us were drawn for big bulls in 2000. My bro calls me on the radio and says hey I just watched a guy drop a bull i answer back good for him he responds  no I talked to him this morning him and his son were drawn for cows. So i make my way over to him to watch. The guys gut out the bull and take off up the hill. I told my bro watch the bull I'm gonna follow em. The shooter sees a Warden in the area and stops him. Procedes to tell the warden he was drawn for a cow, which there was 3 with this bull, he picked out the cow he was going to take and shot. A split second before he shot the bull stepped in front of his cow. To late you cant take back a bullet. The warden asked if I saw this and I told him no but my brother did. He said I would like to talk to him after we take care off the bull. We go down and me and my brother help the shooter, his son and the warden pack out the bull. My brother tells the Warden what he saw. Matched what the shooter told the warden. I asked the Warden what was he going to do with the bull he said take it to the mission. Told him I would use my tag on it (sense I helped pack the thing out). He said go for it . I tagged it and he asked where you parked I'll take it to your rig. After we get it loaded in my rig I ask  hey whats gonna happen to them. He tells me well I have both there guns they lost them, Wrote the shooter a $5000.00 fine and he will more than likely lose his rights fo 10 years. For a simple accident. Sound fair to you guys?

[colockumelk]

So the muckleshoot got a $1K fine with loss of hunting for a year. That's a slap on the wrist since tje three cases I found of non tribal fines was a class c felony, 180 days in jail, $3K fine and loss of hunting privelages for life.  This was not the max sentance but its what they got. How is this fair? One happened in WA state. So same state same crime different penalty. This is racial discrimination.  It's no better than the Jim Crow laws.  I don't know how every tribal poaching case ended up but I do know all the ones that I've seen or read about in my neck of tje woods have all ended up with a slap on tje wrist compared to what a non tribal member would have faced. 

As fat as paintball I will only play if I can bring my Apache. Ill make it sort of fair. Everyone against me. The next time Im in wa Ill be in the Observatory killing a branch bull.   

[klickman]

Klickman,

I have a serious question. I'm not denying that the picture is anything than what you described, but what is it proof of that we all don't already know?  We know tribal members can harvest multiple animals in most cases.  We know it is human nature for hunters to brag about their success.  We know hunters load elk up whole in the back of their trucks from time to time.   So, what argument does this picture go along with?  I'm not saying there isn't one.  I just want to know what it is.

Coastal,

The argument was there is never proof.  I was posting proof and that was what igotbigbulls was asking for.  He wanted to see a picture of a truck load of bulls.  Three branched bulls is what I would consider a truck load.  I've never seen a truck with three big bulls in it after one day of hunting.  The one thing I neglected to add was this was the 22nd of December last year.  Where are most of the elk in the Yakima area that time of year?  They are either in or very close to a feeding station. 

KLICKMAN

[igotbigbulls]

dang colock dont you sleep. arent you on the east coast? well im headed to bed. big day of hoops and football. playing of course. get my but kicked by the twenty year olds.