The Debate about if APR's Work!!

[Cougeyes]

I agree that I just dont think statewide there is a significant deer shortage.  Possibly in some GMUs but not across the state.  I would strongly vote NO to permit only as would all my family members and friends that just enjoy the opportunity to get out and hunt.  When deer numbers and fawn production drop to the point where we need to have further restrictions, maybe then I would vote yes, but right now that time is not here.  Read the WDFW trend reports.  They're very informative. 

[slim9300]

  The problem is that this state exaggerates the number of elk horribly on the west side. I would say that there is half of the elk today that there were in 1980 in Western WA.

I bow hunt, I'm not lazy, I scout two weeks or more every year, I practice shooting daily, I learned to hunt from someone that knows what he is doing, and I shoot mostly cows in WA. It's really not that hard if you are willing to hunt miles from the truck.

Last year, I drove through Twisp and Winthrop the afternoon/evening before the deer opener. I stopped counting deer at about 100, and they were all hanging around the towns, and I cannot recall seeing anything over 3-point and most of the bucks were in the 2-point category, IIRC.  Here were were, ten years into the B/A management scheme, where we should be seeing (theoretically, anyway) more mature bucks, and that doesn't appear to be the case at all.

For the record I was in Twisp and Winthrop last weekend. My little sis drew a Gardner Rut Whitetail tag and I brought her over there to kill a buck.

We hunted a total of 8 hours and were in town for another 8 or so. We saw 8 mule deer bucks, 4 whitetail bucks and over a hundred does. All but two of the mule deer bucks were 3 points or better and all but one of the Whitetails were 4 points or better (counting eye guards which I normally don't do). I couldn't tell if the forked horn whitetail had eye guards but he may have. (we were already done hunting) I just wanted to point out how different two people's accounts can be. (granted I was there during the rut)

Oh and my sis is 10 and drew the tag with two points. Here is her buck...

[bobcat]

Yep and that's why we need to do away with general seasons and go to permit only deer hunting (and elk). Like most other states have done.

You have just solved your own dilemma. Go hunt in one of those other states. Stop hunting here, period. Put in for those permits in Wyoming or Idaho, Montana or Utah...or Colorado. Don't forget New Mexico.

Eliminating general seasons is not going to help perpetuate hunting and grow a new generation of hunters. Nor does it solve the problem we have here, which is not too many hunters but poor management of the resource.

Who is going to be able to convince a kid to become a hunter by telling that kid..."hey, junior, it'll take you 5-8 years to draw a permit, and then you'll have to wait another few years before you can hunt again..."

Not exactly the way to sell an idea.

Funny how it works in other western states, but it can't here? It wouldn't necessarily need to be every unit in the state. Maybe just half  the state. Maybe just for mule deer. Maybe only for modern firearm. Oregon has modern firearm mule deer hunting by permit only and they don't seem to have a problem with their system. Most people can hunt every year if they want to apply for a unit that has lots of tags. Or if you want a more quality hunt you apply for one that requires a couple of points.

[slim9300]

Yep and that's why we need to do away with general seasons and go to permit only deer hunting (and elk). Like most other states have done.

You have just solved your own dilemma. Go hunt in one of those other states. Stop hunting here, period. Put in for those permits in Wyoming or Idaho, Montana or Utah...or Colorado. Don't forget New Mexico.

Eliminating general seasons is not going to help perpetuate hunting and grow a new generation of hunters. Nor does it solve the problem we have here, which is not too many hunters but poor management of the resource.

Who is going to be able to convince a kid to become a hunter by telling that kid..."hey, junior, it'll take you 5-8 years to draw a permit, and then you'll have to wait another few years before you can hunt again..."

Not exactly the way to sell an idea.

Funny how it works in other western states, but it can't here? It wouldn't necessarily need to be every unit in the state. Maybe just half  the state. Maybe just for mule deer. Maybe only for modern firearm. Oregon has modern firearm mule deer hunting by permit only and they don't seem to have a problem with their system. Most people can hunt every year if they want to apply for a unit that has lots of tags. Or if you want a more quality hunt you apply for one that requires a couple of points.

Exactly. Draw only does not mean waiting many years to hunt. It means deciding if you are a trophy hunter or a meat hunter and committing to a single unit / area (even though the big ones can still be found in the units you can draw every year).

[CedarPants]

Yep and that's why we need to do away with general seasons and go to permit only deer hunting (and elk). Like most other states have done.

You have just solved your own dilemma. Go hunt in one of those other states. Stop hunting here, period. Put in for those permits in Wyoming or Idaho, Montana or Utah...or Colorado. Don't forget New Mexico.

Eliminating general seasons is not going to help perpetuate hunting and grow a new generation of hunters....

I don't think hunters telling fellow hunters to get out of this state is going to perpetuate hunting either 

We may all disagree on how to best manage our animals from time to time, but at the end of the day should our solution to differing ideas be to suggest our fellow sportsmen pack up and leave?  I don't necessarily agree with permit only seasons, but I certainly value bobcat as a fellow sportsman and know that we all value the same ideals when looking at the bigger picture.

Perpetuation of hunting is not only dependant on recruiting our youth, but also in us seasoned hunters having the ability to see past our differing opinions as individuals in order to work together as a group 

[high country]

It would be just as easy to make deer like elk where you pick a region and that is where you hunt.

[Glockster]

It would be *easy* to ad another dozen pages to what is already the thickest hunting regulation book in the west.

It would be *easy* to loose another 30-40% of licensed WA hunters in the next decade when you pile on more restrictions, complication, less opportunity and increased cost for decreased value.

There are plenty of states that have draws and lots of trophy potential.  WA has plenty of big trophy class mulies too...just look at the Boneaddict winter range pics...Where do you think those deer are during the 9 days we get to hunt them? They didn't just appear out of thin air. Why not go to those places if you like the trophy hunt experience?

Have at it guys.  Enjoy WA's new quality hunting experiences.  I'll pass.

[high country]

I have already met my quota of bs regulation by Wdfw. I am going to apply for bull hunts till I burn my points.....then, screw this goofy state. Too bad, I used to really be an advocate here. The state is just totally out of whack.

[muleyguy]

people are not going out of state because of the difficulty or the regulations this state has;  this state, relative to other Western states has one of the most liberal tag policies of any state; we have very few draw only units;  think about it, you can buy a deer tag, hunt three different species on the general tag over really 3 months;  you can start with the high country hunt, hit the general season mule deer hunt, head north of spokane for a rut hunt general whitetail hunt in November and then head over the mountains for a blacktail hunt;

if you buy the mult-season tag, which is an easy draw, you can do all this over multiple weapon choices;

so, this idea that hunters are leaving this state because of the onerous regulations is simply not true;  I easily spend 30 to 40 hrs a year researching the out of state draws, etc I apply for;  other Western states, besides Montana, are MUCH more regulated;

the reason people are leaving this state is because the hunting experience is so poor;  too few animals, too few bucks, too few mature bucks and WAY, WAY too many hunters;  too short of a season

Other states offer a much better experience;  just look at the Wyoming and WA state tag differences;  you have DOUBLE the amount of tags in WA vs WY; 

In Wyoming I have to pick a unit or Regions (more regulation then WA) and, many of the units have short general seasons;  but, you know what?  The experience is 10x what it is here;  I don't have to contend with pumpkins on every square inch of were I want to hunt;  I see good numbers of animals;  and, I have a legititmate shot a great buck.

what is going to drive people away from hunting is a poor experience; not limits on hunting opportunities;

According to yours guys' opinion WY is foolish!!  Wyoming should be allocating 80,000 more deer tags!!  That would get it even with WA state.

But, they don't.........which increases their "product"  which is providing a quality hunting experience.  I can guarantee you that there is no shortage of interest in hunters applying for other Western states, all of which have more onerous regulations then WA;  in fact, there tags are in HIGH demand because they are providing a high quality product.

restriction of tag numbers is not going to kill hunting;  and for getting kids involved???  You want to get your kid into hunting???  Take them out of state.......because their hunting experience will be 10x what it is here;  you bring a 14 yr old kid to eastern MT and that kid will be hooked for life, I can guarantee it.  You bring him up to your family hunting area in WA state and he will deal with all the BS that goes on here;  too many hunters, too few deer, too few legal bucks, etc.

you know, my kid loves to go to disneyland;  just because he can't go every year does not diminish his desire to go!!  the reason he wants to go is because disneyland provides a quality product;

the bottom line in this state is that when you put 2x the tag pressure on a smaller resource base, your quality of product is going to go down......

basing your view of our herd health on going to the wintering grounds during the rut and seeing bucks is really pretty short sighted;  the winter grounds and rut concentrate deer from hundreds of square miles into a few square miles;  boneaddict does get some great photos and see some great bucks even outside this period, but he also spends 3 to 4 weeks () in the field each and every year (according to what he has stated on here);

the problem in this state is that the management scheme that has been adopted is to not restrict tag sales, leave it wideopen, have very few draw units, and mostly general units, but, rather to restrict season length and use APR's to enhance escapement; 

This is completely backwards to what EVERY other Western State is doing;  we have lots of WA hunters going out of state every year because the product is better then our product.

Anyone ever think that maybe we have it wrong in WA?? 

Maybe we need to do what every other Western state is doing............restricting tag sales, going to draw or region only hunts, no APR's;  having longer hunting seasons that spread out the hunter pressure over a wider amount of days.

[high country]

It's a combination of bad situations that turn me off. A 9 day elk season to shoot a spike bull. Having 5.4million acres in the colville nf and only 25 acres open to atv, goofy APRs on deer, predator hunting is way out of whack, the number of hunters for such small blocks of land....this really mushroomed with the leasing of land by hunt clubs in the last ten years. So all in all you shove too many people into too small of an area and then reduce the opportunity. I will not even start on the multi season horsechit. If they can afford to let guys hunt multiple seasons at a high price, why not just allow everyone to do it without the bs overpriced drawing?

[Dave Workman]

Yep and that's why we need to do away with general seasons and go to permit only deer hunting (and elk). Like most other states have done.

You have just solved your own dilemma. Go hunt in one of those other states. Stop hunting here, period. Put in for those permits in Wyoming or Idaho, Montana or Utah...or Colorado. Don't forget New Mexico.

Eliminating general seasons is not going to help perpetuate hunting and grow a new generation of hunters....

I don't think hunters telling fellow hunters to get out of this state is going to perpetuate hunting either 

I didn't tell him to get out of state. I told him to hunt out of state. The permit system obviously appeals to him, and there are lots of places for him to apply for those permits.

There is obviously a contingent of permit advocates on this board. Be cognizant of the fact that simply because you guys advocate something does not mean this state needs to adopt that. If you all feel, that strongly, then you should all apply for permits in the other states and not hunt here at all, if it detracts from your experience to see so many other hunters around.

I'm not telling you to pull up stakes, quit your job and move.

Some folks don't like my attitude.  I grew up here, 4th generation. I've seen management go from good to piss poor. It began with a change in the name of the agency from Game Department to Department of Fish and Wildlife and it has steadily eroded with increased emphasis on "watchable" wildlife and predator protection.

Unlike agencies in Oregon and Idaho , when this state was faced with the initiative to ban hound hunting for cougars and black bears, this state's agency hardly lifted an energetic finger, while similar attempts in other states brought down a spirited resistance.

I'll bet Wacenturion and Bearpaw remember that better than me.

As for hunting pressure, let me use the comparison that I have been using for more than 25 years that really pisses them off in Olympia.

Washington v. Ohio.


Ohio has approximately 20,000 square miles LESS land mass than Washington. 

Ohio has 282.3 persons per square mile
Washington has 101.2 persons per square mile

In 2010 Washington sold just over 131,000 deer tags
In 2010 Ohio sold just over 609,400 deer permits

Ohio has one deer species: Whitetail 
Washington has three species: Blacktail, whitetail and mule deer

Washington hunters killed 30,707 deer during that season
Ohio hunters killed 105,781 deer during the general gun season and more than 261,000 deer during the entire combined seasons and that was DOWN from past years.

http://www.ohiodnr.com/Portals/9/pdf/pub304.pdf

Now, I have no intention of moving to Ohio. I'm from around here. But it seems to me that with all the millions of acres of public land we have that Ohio doesn't, and half the people, we could do a little bit better. Just a smidge. Oh, and they get some pretty big bucks in Ohio.

Now, muleguy says people leave this state because of the poor hunting experience, and that is partly correct.
Glockster says it also has to do with the regulations, and that's correct, too.
In Ohio, and in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming...the agencies treat hunters as valuable. Here they seem to treat us like a necessary evil.

We all seem to agree that management here sucks. We seem to disagree on the answer.

so we fight amongst ourselves when ... as I have explained before ... we ought to be holding the agency accountable.

[colockumelk]

people are not going out of state because of the difficulty or the regulations this state has;  this state, relative to other Western states has one of the most liberal tag policies of any state; we have very few draw only units;  think about it, you can buy a deer tag, hunt three different species on the general tag over really 3 months;  you can start with the high country hunt, hit the general season mule deer hunt, head north of spokane for a rut hunt general whitetail hunt in November and then head over the mountains for a blacktail hunt;

if you buy the mult-season tag, which is an easy draw, you can do all this over multiple weapon choices;

so, this idea that hunters are leaving this state because of the onerous regulations is simply not true;  I easily spend 30 to 40 hrs a year researching the out of state draws, etc I apply for;  other Western states, besides Montana, are MUCH more regulated;

the reason people are leaving this state is because the hunting experience is so poor;  too few animals, too few bucks, too few mature bucks and WAY, WAY too many hunters;  too short of a season

Other states offer a much better experience;  just look at the Wyoming and WA state tag differences;  you have DOUBLE the amount of tags in WA vs WY; 

In Wyoming I have to pick a unit or Regions (more regulation then WA) and, many of the units have short general seasons;  but, you know what?  The experience is 10x what it is here;  I don't have to contend with pumpkins on every square inch of were I want to hunt;  I see good numbers of animals;  and, I have a legititmate shot a great buck.

what is going to drive people away from hunting is a poor experience; not limits on hunting opportunities;

According to yours guys' opinion WY is foolish!!  Wyoming should be allocating 80,000 more deer tags!!  That would get it even with WA state.

But, they don't.........which increases their "product"  which is providing a quality hunting experience.  I can guarantee you that there is no shortage of interest in hunters applying for other Western states, all of which have more onerous regulations then WA;  in fact, there tags are in HIGH demand because they are providing a high quality product.

restriction of tag numbers is not going to kill hunting;  and for getting kids involved???  You want to get your kid into hunting???  Take them out of state.......because their hunting experience will be 10x what it is here;  you bring a 14 yr old kid to eastern MT and that kid will be hooked for life, I can guarantee it.  You bring him up to your family hunting area in WA state and he will deal with all the BS that goes on here;  too many hunters, too few deer, too few legal bucks, etc.

you know, my kid loves to go to disneyland;  just because he can't go every year does not diminish his desire to go!!  the reason he wants to go is because disneyland provides a quality product;

the bottom line in this state is that when you put 2x the tag pressure on a smaller resource base, your quality of product is going to go down......

basing your view of our herd health on going to the wintering grounds during the rut and seeing bucks is really pretty short sighted;  the winter grounds and rut concentrate deer from hundreds of square miles into a few square miles;  boneaddict does get some great photos and see some great bucks even outside this period, but he also spends 3 to 4 weeks () in the field each and every year (according to what he has stated on here);

the problem in this state is that the management scheme that has been adopted is to not restrict tag sales, leave it wideopen, have very few draw units, and mostly general units, but, rather to restrict season length and use APR's to enhance escapement; 

This is completely backwards to what EVERY other Western State is doing;  we have lots of WA hunters going out of state every year because the product is better then our product.

Anyone ever think that maybe we have it wrong in WA?? 

Maybe we need to do what every other Western state is doing............restricting tag sales, going to draw or region only hunts, no APR's;  having longer hunting seasons that spread out the hunter pressure over a wider amount of days.

You know muleyguy I spent read over this post and some of your others trying to add something other than "yeah that" or "I agree 100%" but I couldn't. You said it perfect and are 100% correct. As fat as APRs and Mule Deer and BT goes you changed my mind. I still think we need them in WA only because of the hunter:deer ratio but I see why you are against APRs. You are right because of this high ratio if we opened the season up it would devistate our herd.

To some others stop comparing hunting today to 1970. It's apples to oranges. You cant do it. Technology, predators, politics and the tribes has changed the dynamics completely. Again Muleyguy you are awesome. Well said.

[rasbo]

good post dave

[bobcat]

I don't see this as "fighting amongst ourselves". I see it simply as just hunters offering up their opinions as to the best way to manage the deer in our state. I certainly don't have all the answers but I would like to see management go in the direction of less hunters in the woods, and less harvest, while others want more liberal seasons and an increase in harvest. I just don't see that as an option. I would like to see predator populations knocked down some, but how to do that? Yes it would be nice if the DFW could somehow make it legal again to hunt cats with hounds, but I think that's a bit unrealistic. I'm not sure they have the power to do so.

Oh, and Dave, I'd love to hunt out of state every year but I cannot afford it. I think I'll be stuck here in Washington and only Washington for the next 10 years or so.   

[CedarPants]

so we fight amongst ourselves when ... as I have explained before ... we ought to be holding the agency accountable.

I agree with you 100%.  This is precisely what I meant when I said:

Perpetuation of hunting is not only dependant on recruiting our youth, but also in us seasoned hunters having the ability to see past our differing opinions as individuals in order to work together as a group 

I didn't specifically point out that I was meaning hold the agency accountable, but that's what I was alluding to when I said working together.  I think all and all, you and I are both saying the same thing Dave.

Some folks don't like my attitude. 

Personally, I love your attitude.  You don't beat around the bush, you get straight to the point and tell it like it is.  I admire that