The Debate about if APR's Work!!

[high country]

I can't speak for everywhere but it the NE in my opinion hunting pressure is only but a small fraction of the strain put on the herds. Predation whether it it be bears, cougars, wolves or coyotes and hard winters have a much more profound affect on them.

As well as fishermen, shooters, hikers, motorized use, logging.....there is a lot more stress on ne deer than wheat country deer.

[huntnnw]

I can't speak for everywhere but it the NE in my opinion hunting pressure is only but a small fraction of the strain put on the herds. Predation whether it it be bears, cougars, wolves or coyotes and hard winters have a much more profound affect on them.

As well as fishermen, shooters, hikers, motorized use, logging.....there is a lot more stress on ne deer than wheat country deer.

 STRESS yes, but the ability to harvest deer in wheat country is far easier.. the escapability is very low in open terrain like the palouse as compared to rugged, dense forest of NE WA

[Elkaholic daWg]

True spike for general season, meaning it has to be a straight slick 1x1.  And there are a few permits allowed, but not many.

 Yeah! like about 6..all weapon types!

[high country]

I can't speak for everywhere but it the NE in my opinion hunting pressure is only but a small fraction of the strain put on the herds. Predation whether it it be bears, cougars, wolves or coyotes and hard winters have a much more profound affect on them.

As well as fishermen, shooters, hikers, motorized use, logging.....there is a lot more stress on ne deer than wheat country deer.

 STRESS yes, but the ability to harvest deer in wheat country is far easier.. the escapability is very low in open terrain like the palouse as compared to rugged, dense forest of NE WA

Agreed 100% ne bucks are smarter and have much more opportunity to hide and will be much more wary of humans.

[Elkaholic daWg]

I have seen APRs work for myself. Both here in Eastern WA and in Alabama. My family has hunted around Pullman for over 15 years. Since 3pt min has been implemented the amount of bucks has skyrocketed. Is it a trophy class unit no. Not at all. But that's not what APRs or QDM is about. Only the Antis who try to demonize APRs say it is an elitist policy and all about trophies. And they lie and are wrong. If they read the mission statememt QDM is about herd health. Its about increasing escapement, increasing the overall numbers of bucks and the buck:doe ratio. They say nothing about trophy animals.

I've hunted around Pullman and the number of bucks is good.  I see a lot of 2-point bucks. Lots and lots of 2-point bucks compared to anywhere else I've hunted the past few years. Very few bucks with more points, however. Well in that case my opinion or experience must not count.  All of those legal 4 pts I see must be a figment of my imagination. Maybe that's because you hunt during rifle season when all the bucks who have lived through a hunting season are smart enough to avoid roads and stay in the thick stuff.  The only ones dumbe enough to venture out are the yearlings, aka all the 2pts you see. 

I'm not a liar, and I won't be called one simply because you happen to disagree with what I and others know for a fact. I never called you a liar.  You are putting words in my mouth. Oh you know for a fact huh.  Do you have any research or data to prove this "fact" I don't give a rat's ass what APRs and QDMs say on paper. You are living in denial if you think for a heartbeat that advocates (not all of 'em) of "Quality Deer management" and "Antler Point Restrictions" aren't pushing this philosophy to produc a bunch of bigger racks.  So since myself and others may disagree with you we must be stupid right?  Or we are just naive and live every day in denial.

All of us who don't agree with APRs and QDMs (gee, ain't it neat to talk with alphabet soup acronyms?) are also interested in herd health, and some of us have been around here long enough to understand generations of weather and herd cycles and how you can manage for all kinds of things but if you ignore the fact that weather can clobber a herd because there are too many post-season bucks around, then you're dumber than rocks. So because I disagree with you I'm dumber than rocks.  Wow the insults just keep coming.  So let me ask you where and when has this ever been a problem in WA state.  Too many bucks.  I would love to see a source that cites too many bucks as a reason for a high level of winter kill.

I remember the big winter kills and what they did to the mule deer and whitetail herds. Back when I wrote for F&H News, I interviewed a bio up in the Methow Valley who told me about all the dead  deer he had in his yard, and deer killed along the highways.

This state hasn't done a very good job of habitat enhancement, and that's a big part of the problem. Very disappointing.

The Antis try to claim Amy buck allows equal harvest distribution of the age class. This is a lie. I have yet to see a study that doesn't say that 3/4 of buck harvest comes from the 1.5 year old age class. That doesnt sound even to me.

We've had the b/a requirement on mule deer for more than ten years. You're telling me that 3/4 of the mule deer bucks taken are 1.5 years old? Nice attempt attempt at a spin.  No I said in previous posts and this one that in "Any Buck" key word "Any Buck" units 3/4 of the harvest is on yearling bucks.  Since Central Washington Mule deer has been 3pt min for some time that would not fit into the "Any Buck" category

Also focusing your harvest on yearling bucks (which is what any buck hunts do) and not shooting any does is horrid  game management. So of course this is what the WDFW has done. APRs do despite tje antis claim evenly distribute the buck harvest across the age spectrum from 2.5 years on up.  Plus it encourages doe harvest.

Where do you get it that any buck regulations focus the harvest on yearling / spike bucks? Besides, what is wrong with taking the pressure off of mature bucks that really don't hit their prime until they're 3-4 years old? Again most research shows that in "Any Buck" units 3/4 of buck harvest is from yearling bucks.  Since the vast majority of harvest is on yearling bucks I would consider that focusing on the yearling bucks.

There is some anti studies out but most don't have sources to cite. There is 10x more research that support the fact that APRs work. Plus I've seen it work for myself. In two different states.

I've seen it work here to reduce the number of hunters in the field by the tens of thousands.  If that's what you're after, you're only helping destroy hunting altogether.
Yep its just one big conspiracy me and the other elitist APR guys have.  We are trying to end and cut tens of thousands of hunters.  In fact I bet if you check the whitetail institute and the QDM website that is in their mission statement.  Oh and if a unit goes to 3pt min that isn't aimed at cutting hunter numbers.  If a hunter chooses to quite because it goes to an APR that is their personal choice.  No one made them quite.  They quite on their own.


But of course, all of this discussion really identifies what is happening with management in WA.  The divisions between B/A advocates and any buck advocates is another symptom of the same disease being spread by Resource Allocation: Divide the user groups against one another, keep them fighting and we're never going to unify to hold the AGENCY accountable for all the things it is not doing.

You know Dave your attitude stinks.  The difference between you and me is I posted some research that I said I agreed with and believed to be true.  I never said it was 100% fact.  And if people disagree with me fine.  I will debate my point while they debate theirs in a respectfull manner and have fun doing it.  And until you came here it was cordial and respectfull.  You however come here and say everything you believe is FACT and everyone else that disagrees with you is "dumber than a box of rocks" or "living in denial" I don't care what you think you "know to be fact" because I havn't seen you post anything that proves your point other than "Ive been hunting longer than you have" And your only argument against my data and sources cited is that its some sort of "conspiracy" of QDM.  Really.  That's all you have? 

I would love to debate you.  You seem smart and well informed.  But if your gonna be pompous, arrogant and disrespectfull then I will not respond to you. You don't have to be a jerk to debate people. 

To everyone else I have enjoyed debating you.  Glockster thanks for posting the stuff that goes against APR's.  You must be better at google than me.  I enjoyed reading them.  And while I don't agree with them it is another point of view and I learned some stuff.  I look forward to continueing this debate.  Good night everyone.

 Yes Colockumelk Dave  (as I) has been hunting  longer than I'd guess over 90% of the members here, and as I has not been programed to for "lack of" opportunity as so many of the  pre 40's (- +) age has been since they no NO OTHER.
 I have hunted the Colockum GMUs since the 60's when in my estimate there were at least 30% more hunters in the field than now, ( the Gamies drove chained up Dodge  darts  and Plymouth Dusters) and A Ch!t load more cover  than the DNR has left up there now. Full 2 week season starting first week of November
  Every year I go up there and  what they continue to do pisses me off MORE. DFW blames us for lack of escapement, while DNR does their best to remove any chance those animals have of escaping. Arbitrarily closing roads to established camps while destroying the area. (like folks camping in that area they destroyed would make ANY significant difference!) Then lets talk tribal  and DNR made it easier for them too.

 When spike only started up there in about 1994 there were about 60 any/quality whatever bull tags drawn in the 3 GMUs and now there are about 6. Now THAT's progress!

  Guys, if you never have experienced something, you don't miss it. Well WE  (and  others) have and we have not let them program us to their way of thinking because we see it for what it is......A big forking mess they have created and want to continue being all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ for S/P draw  chances while they create more catagories to take more $$$ from us.



One other thing.....the NE 4 pt restriction seemed to work very well in the units it wasn't implemented in, since I saw MUCH fewer animals in the 105 than ever before. more hunters also.

[colockumelk]

Elkahawlic don't get me wrong.  I completely respect the experience that you and Dave and other "old timers" have.  I respect your opinions.  My only beef wasn't that he disagreed with me.  Its the fact that his opinions are "FACTS" and the attitude that people who have differing opinions are "dumber than rocks" or we live in "denial" and that any studies that disprove or go against his "facts/opinions" are some sort of conspiracy.  If he wants to be polite like Glockster and provide data and research that supports the Anti-APR theory than that is awesome.  That's how we learn on here.  But he hasn't done that.  Instead he came here and was rude, insulted me and others simply because we have differing points of view.  Here is a perfect example


 

Last year, I drove through Twisp and Winthrop the afternoon/evening before the deer opener. I stopped counting deer at about 100, and they were all hanging around the towns, and I cannot recall seeing anything over 3-point and most of the bucks were in the 2-point category, IIRC.  Here were were, ten years into the B/A management scheme, where we should be seeing (theoretically, anyway) more mature bucks, and that doesn't appear to be the case at all. 

Here is a perfect case.  Because he drove around and all he saw were two points then the APR must not work right.  And since he saw it then its "fact".  But if I go in the same area but hike in some where and see 15 legal bucks it must have been an isolated incident, I'm lying or I'm "in denial."  How can driving a road prove anything.  Since we all know that any legal buck near the roads either gets poached, hit by a car or shot by road hunters.  Of course there's not gonna be anything bigger than a 2 pt.  But if he would provide some research like Glockster did it would hold more weight.  Instead of just calling us idiots. 

[6x6in6]

There are very few any bull tags and cow tags issued for the 3-4 GMU's that comprise the Colockum.  It really has a minimal affect on the bull/cow ratio which is around the 10:100 range.  Pathetic!!
You nailed the Colockum on the need for an entirely limited entry hunt and can the general spike only gig.
Can't have that though, the State would lose revenue which is what it's really all about.
I propose the State lose the GMU title and move to RMU's........Revenue Management Units.   

6-by... part of the problem in the Colockum appears to be tribal hunting, but that's another story for a different day.

I like the "RMU" designation.

I wasn't going to go there with the obvious. 

[Cougeyes]

Agreed you can't make justification for the APR not working by just driving around and counting deer in people's yards.  Bucks know they are targeted, i've hardly ever seen 3 point or better bucks in people's yards.  Its always does, fawns, and maybe yearling bucks.  Bucks dont get big or become legal bucks by being dumb and hanging out near roads.   Just look at WDFW game trend reports.  They provide data on buck to doe ratios and 3 point or better bucks counted vs yearling bucks or two points.  The data is there to read.  I dont think we're hurting for 3 point or better bucks statewide, but that doesn't mean there aren't some GMUs that have their own problems and may be hurting.  I still dont agree with the APR but i dont think we are hurting for 3 point or better deer or even yearling deer for that matter. 

[Glockster]

PRO APR people:

Please post some study citations from ANY western PROFESSIONAL GAME BIOLOGISTS who support APR.  I can't seem to find any past one who states it *may* work as a TEMPORARY measure in the short term after killer winters to increase buck recruitment. 

We've been living with 3PT APR on muledeer since the '97 season...that's 14 years.   See how hard it is to get a restriction lifted once it's in place in WA??!!!

As all other western states have abandoned APR, WA sticks with it. (WA didn't even participate in the Muledeer working group studies i cited)   Ask yourself why?  Answer: They are not in the game management business...they are in the people and revenue management business.  They would like to see even fewer hunters; or as they refer to us in the PC speak; "non consumptive user groups"..Yet they would like to have a record revenue year like this year with all the hunters hungrily paying $6 per unlimited permit application!   

Other folks who would like to see fewer hunters in the WA woods inlcude wolf advocates and the treaty tribes.  They would like to see "healthier herds" for their own agendas...not ours. 

[Elkaholic daWg]

 I understand, But when you have been at it for as many years as we, and have seen the lack of progress in their way of mismanagement, you tend to be very passionate about your beliefs since they have been ignored by DFW for so many years. I have been known to be an arse on here when it comes to access issues.
 Art Coffin would be outraged to see what this state has done to his legacy at mountain home.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!



 GO DaWGs!

[high country]

I have next to no confidence in Wdfw biology after my bear experience. I drew the first offered spring tag in the ne and asked the two bios lots of questions and I received mostly "i don't know" answers. How the hell do you put on a new hunt if you know nothing about the prey? Ever since I judge with that in mind. One would think that with two guys having as much experience as they do they could answer basic questions. I ended up calling Idaho and getting my info.

[muleyguy]

the push to use data from Eastern US whitetail herds experience with APR's to justify their use on NE WA whitetail herds is simply flawed;  when Eastern and Midwestern states  began to experiment with APR's their herds had a completely different makeup then our herd;  these herds were marked by extremely high populations of antlerless deer, very poor buck to doe ratio's and very poor buck age structure;  the "Father" of all these APR's is Dr Alt who was in charge of pennsylvania wildlife department;  his influence along with others helped shape theQDM philosophy;

the problem with these herds is that they were well over the biological carrying capacity of the forests, the buck to doe ratio was so low and the age structure of the buck population so poor that the rut was over an extended period and was weak.  So, they designed a management scheme to solve this problem.  ALL APR programs in the East are designed around having huge INCREASES in antlerless harvest;  the goal is is to reduce buck harvest (use of APR's) and increase antlerless harvest (increased antlerless opportunities) here is a series of quotes straight from the QDM website:

In today’s era of overabundant whitetail populations, one of the most common challenges facing those practicing Quality Deer Management (QDM) is harvesting enough antlerless deer on their property annually. In fact, in some areas it seems that no matter how many antlerless deer you harvest, little, if any, population impact is achieved.

QDM in Pennsylvania — 2002
The 2002 deer season was designed to decrease buck harvest and increase antlerless harvest.

The PGC also allocated more than 1 million antlerless licenses, or approximately 150,000 more than the previous record in 1991.

Think about that..........1 MILLION antlerless tags in 1 year...........in a state the size of WA.........

By increasing the antlerless opportunities they achieve two things, first was obvious was people shot more does......but, the second primary reason was that there is a tendency for people to only shoot one deer;  hunters had a buck tag and an antlerless tag;  after a few days of not finding a 4 pt or better buck, many would simply shoot a doe and call it a day.   Some estimates put this at up to 30% of hunters.  They also structure their hunting seasons to occur after the rut in many areas so as not to put pressure on the larger bucks.

This fact further takes pressure off of the buck population.

now lets contrast that with what we have going on in NE WA;  we have a herd that is well below the biological carrying capacity of the habitat, especially in the public land areas.  We have a herd that has decent buck to doe ratio's (as compared to Eastern whitetail herds) and we have much better buck age structure (as compared to Eastern Whitetail herds).

now, lets compare the avg hunter in NE WA;  the only opportunity for him to harvest an animal is a 4 pt buck or better;  he has no antlerless tag to take the pressure of of the buck population. 

So, the entire focus of that hunter is now on the older age classes of the buck population;  AND we are giving hunters the chance to hunt in the pre-rut/rut when the largest bucks are the most vulnerable!!!

  it is true that in some of these eastern whitetail herds they have seen some very small increases in 4.5 yr old or older buck population after APR's;  BUT this is primarily because a lot of the pressure is taken off of these bucks because of the availabilty of antlerless tags.

We don't have that option here because the problem with our whitetail herds is vastly different;  our problem is not one of age structure or even buck to doe ratio, it is simply a problem of the herd being under so much pressure from winter kill and predators.   

If you dig into the research on these APR's several facts become apparant;  one, is they simply move the avg harvest date up from a 1.5 yr old animal to a 2.5 yr old animal:

Data compiled by the PGC shows that while yearling bucks are indeed surviving at higher rates, most are being harvested the first year they are legal. Prior to the new rules, about 20 percent of the total buck harvest consisted of mature (two years or older) deer. Now, 2-1/2-year-old bucks make up 75 percent of Pennsylvania’s “mature” buck harvest.

APR's cannot "fix" our whitetail herds in NE WA because the age structure or buck to doe ratio is NOT the problem!  I don't know how many times I have heard the statement on here "well were just going to try it to fix our herds, we have to do something".

If you want to fix our herds then you have to increase the amount of deer;  APR's cannot do that;  and, in fact, they could actually do damage because they are going to DAMAGE to the current age structure of the population.

You want to help the herds??  Get rid of ALL antlerless tags until the herd is at or above carrying capacity;  put lots of political pressure on the wildlife department to expand and make easier predator control;   and, when the population gets hit from a severe winter kill, restrict the buck harvest through reduced opportunities (NOT APR's) to ensure that not too much pressure is put on the buck population.  A simple way to help this would have been to just put a two year hiatus on the Nov late hunt or reduce its season length down.

So, this idea of using "QDM" or eastern US whitetail strategies in NE WA is foolish and naive because there are two completely different goals going on;  the reason they work in those areas is because of the crucial component of antlerless tags;  this helps to take pressure off of the mature bucks because it gives the avg hunter a harvest option that we cannot give our hunters in this state.

IF you want to use APR's then the much better way is not a 4 pt or more;  it would be a 3 pt or less in whitetail or 2 pt or less in mule deer;  this focus' the harvest on the immature males and not the mature males;  BUT even these do not work all the time;  it has worked well in the Yakima area for elk, but, has not worked well in the colocklum because of the more open nature of the habitat.

So, the choice in the NE whitetail herd was obviously not based on science;  the better choice, if you were going to use an APR in NE WA would have been a 3 pt or less;  with the escapment cover, you would have quickly expanded the right part of the buck population (older males) instead of the wrong part (yearling males).

The much bigger picture in this state though is that both antlerless and buck harvests are going to have to be strictly controlled in the future at some point;  our herds face too many challenges from winter conditions, predators, etc.  We have too many people wanting to use the resource.  Our whitetail herds are simply not as productive as Eastern herds and face challenges that they do not.

Using these APR gimmicks just kicks the can down the road awhile longer until we have to have the real conversation.........and, unfortunately, probably will do damage to our herds;  the legacy of the 3 pt or better mule deer APR thats been in effect for 13 years now is ever shortening seasons so now we are all crammed into a 9 day season; and, the unfortunate fact that we will never get rid of it because of the hit to the buck population the first year you get rid of it.

The legacy of the 4 pt or more restriction in NE WA will be that you will never get rid of it, and eventually you will see the late season shortened or scrapped entirely because of the pressure it will put on the mature buck population.

 

[bobcat]

We've been living with 3PT APR on muledeer since the '97 season...that's 14 years.   See how hard it is to get a restriction lifted once it's in place in WA??!!!

The WDFW wanted to do away with the 3 point restriction but hunters voted to keep it. The biologists have said it's no longer necessary but for some reason they go with public opinion instead of what their biologists recommend.

[Dave Workman]

Elkahawlic don't get me wrong.  I completely respect the experience that you and Dave and other "old timers" have.  I respect your opinions.  My only beef wasn't that he disagreed with me.  Its the fact that his opinions are "FACTS" and the attitude that people who have differing opinions are "dumber than rocks" or we live in "denial" and that any studies that disprove or go against his "facts/opinions" are some sort of conspiracy.  If he wants to be polite like Glockster and provide data and research that supports the Anti-APR theory than that is awesome.  That's how we learn on here.  But he hasn't done that.  Instead he came here and was rude, insulted me and others simply because we have differing points of view.  ....

Here is a perfect case.  Because he drove around and all he saw were two points then the APR must not work right. ....

My research and data are pretty much the same that Glockster has provided, so why be redundant? He is obviously faster on Google than I am, but I'm older.

I don't need to get out and walk through Twisp and Winthrop to see the same deer I saw by driving through. I was enroute to deer camp, where it can be verified, I walked a hell of a lot over a couple of days, up ridges, across an old forest fire burn, and other places where we found tracks, but no deer. 

Down in the Snake River, as can be verified, I hiked those breaks and down along the canyons for three days straight. Don't let anybody kid you, deer have plenty of cover and they can get out of rifle range pretty darned fast in that country.

People I hunt with know I get away from the roads, and I do not need to recite chapter and verse from some whitetail study to discuss what antler restrictions for more than ten years have NOT done for the mule deer herds and the buck-to-doe ratio.

Besides,,what good is a high buck-doe ratio if those bucks can't be tagged?

You say you saw legal bucks around Pullman. Good for you. I hope you shot one.

What I see with my own eyes are facts.

[Dave Workman]

We've been living with 3PT APR on muledeer since the '97 season...that's 14 years.   See how hard it is to get a restriction lifted once it's in place in WA??!!!

The WDFW wanted to do away with the 3 point restriction but hunters voted to keep it. The biologists have said it's no longer necessary but for some reason they go with public opinion instead of what their biologists recommend.

You mean the Commission, don't you? Not the WDFW.

I don't recall ever being asked to vote for or against continuing the 3-pt B/A restriction?  This was when?