The Debate about if APR's Work!!

[slim9300]

I get that aspect of hunting but the problem is a declining elk population. Antler restrictions or reduced numbers of hunters would reduce the harvest and allow elk to slowly rebound in this state IMHO.

What elk populations are you talking about?  The Yakima herd and Colockum herd are at or above objective with numbers, but the Colockum herd bull:cow ratios are hurting severely.  Not sure what elk populations in the state are declining?

Nevermind. See above.

[Cougeyes]

I only have experience on the west side of the Cascades. (and mostly on the coast) I should have made that clear. Antler restrictions would fix your bull to cow ratio in the Colockum over time. This state has a horrible bull to cow ratio in pretty much every general unit on the west side.

It's hard for the state though on the westside to give an accurate account of elk numbers because they dont rely heavily on wintering areas like the eastside does.  The eastside can have better estimates of herd size and ratios because they mainly winter in open areas and  many go to feed lots or close to them where they can be counted.  The westside conditions for counting elk are just like trying to get an accurate count of white tails up north.  It's very hard because of the dense timber and thick understory rendering helicopter surveys practically insufficient.

Antler restrictions have been in place in the Colockum for years and they bull:cow ratio isn't getting better.  This is another topic all in itself that has been brought up several times.  Colockum elk (the guy that started this thread) has provided lots of info into this problem.   

[high country]

Comparing pullman, which is nearly 100% private with *censored* tons of food to 117 which is largely open to the public and offers tons more cover and 1000x the escapement possibilities is like comparing democrats to republicans

[slim9300]

I only have experience on the west side of the Cascades. (and mostly on the coast) I should have made that clear. Antler restrictions would fix your bull to cow ratio in the Colockum over time. This state has a horrible bull to cow ratio in pretty much every general unit on the west side.

It's hard for the state though on the westside to give an accurate account of elk numbers because they dont rely heavily on wintering areas like the eastside does.  The eastside can have better estimates of herd size and ratios because they mainly winter in open areas and  many go to feed lots or close to them where they can be counted.  The westside conditions for counting elk are just like trying to get an accurate count of white tails up north.  It's very hard because of the dense timber and thick understory rendering helicopter surveys practically insufficient.

Antler restrictions have been in place in the Colockum for years and they bull:cow ratio isn't getting better.  This is another topic all in itself that has been brought up several times.  Colockum elk (the guy that started this thread) has provided lots of info into this problem.

What are the antler restrictions in Colockum?

[Cougeyes]

True spike for general season, meaning it has to be a straight slick 1x1.  And there are a few permits allowed, but not many.

[slim9300]

I only have experience on the west side of the Cascades. (and mostly on the coast) I should have made that clear. Antler restrictions would fix your bull to cow ratio in the Colockum over time. This state has a horrible bull to cow ratio in pretty much every general unit on the west side.

It's hard for the state though on the westside to give an accurate account of elk numbers because they dont rely heavily on wintering areas like the eastside does.  The eastside can have better estimates of herd size and ratios because they mainly winter in open areas and  many go to feed lots or close to them where they can be counted.  The westside conditions for counting elk are just like trying to get an accurate count of white tails up north.  It's very hard because of the dense timber and thick understory rendering helicopter surveys practically insufficient.

Antler restrictions have been in place in the Colockum for years and they bull:cow ratio isn't getting better.  This is another topic all in itself that has been brought up several times.  Colockum elk (the guy that started this thread) has provided lots of info into this problem.

I get the problem with counting elk on the Westside. It's basically done by extrapolation, which is a joke.

But the state has the blinders on regarding the elk numbers on the Westside. They are shaped like this... $ $

[colockumelk]

I have seen APRs work for myself. Both here in Eastern WA and in Alabama. My family has hunted around Pullman for over 15 years. Since 3pt min has been implemented the amount of bucks has skyrocketed. Is it a trophy class unit no. Not at all. But that's not what APRs or QDM is about. Only the Antis who try to demonize APRs say it is an elitist policy and all about trophies. And they lie and are wrong. If they read the mission statememt QDM is about herd health. Its about increasing escapement, increasing the overall numbers of bucks and the buck:doe ratio. They say nothing about trophy animals.

I've hunted around Pullman and the number of bucks is good.  I see a lot of 2-point bucks. Lots and lots of 2-point bucks compared to anywhere else I've hunted the past few years. Very few bucks with more points, however. Well in that case my opinion or experience must not count.  All of those legal 4 pts I see must be a figment of my imagination. Maybe that's because you hunt during rifle season when all the bucks who have lived through a hunting season are smart enough to avoid roads and stay in the thick stuff.  The only ones dumbe enough to venture out are the yearlings, aka all the 2pts you see. 

I'm not a liar, and I won't be called one simply because you happen to disagree with what I and others know for a fact. I never called you a liar.  You are putting words in my mouth. Oh you know for a fact huh.  Do you have any research or data to prove this "fact" I don't give a rat's ass what APRs and QDMs say on paper. You are living in denial if you think for a heartbeat that advocates (not all of 'em) of "Quality Deer management" and "Antler Point Restrictions" aren't pushing this philosophy to produc a bunch of bigger racks.  So since myself and others may disagree with you we must be stupid right?  Or we are just naive and live every day in denial.

All of us who don't agree with APRs and QDMs (gee, ain't it neat to talk with alphabet soup acronyms?) are also interested in herd health, and some of us have been around here long enough to understand generations of weather and herd cycles and how you can manage for all kinds of things but if you ignore the fact that weather can clobber a herd because there are too many post-season bucks around, then you're dumber than rocks. So because I disagree with you I'm dumber than rocks.  Wow the insults just keep coming.  So let me ask you where and when has this ever been a problem in WA state.  Too many bucks.  I would love to see a source that cites too many bucks as a reason for a high level of winter kill.

I remember the big winter kills and what they did to the mule deer and whitetail herds. Back when I wrote for F&H News, I interviewed a bio up in the Methow Valley who told me about all the dead  deer he had in his yard, and deer killed along the highways.

This state hasn't done a very good job of habitat enhancement, and that's a big part of the problem. Very disappointing.

The Antis try to claim Amy buck allows equal harvest distribution of the age class. This is a lie. I have yet to see a study that doesn't say that 3/4 of buck harvest comes from the 1.5 year old age class. That doesnt sound even to me.

We've had the b/a requirement on mule deer for more than ten years. You're telling me that 3/4 of the mule deer bucks taken are 1.5 years old? Nice attempt attempt at a spin.  No I said in previous posts and this one that in "Any Buck" key word "Any Buck" units 3/4 of the harvest is on yearling bucks.  Since Central Washington Mule deer has been 3pt min for some time that would not fit into the "Any Buck" category

Also focusing your harvest on yearling bucks (which is what any buck hunts do) and not shooting any does is horrid  game management. So of course this is what the WDFW has done. APRs do despite tje antis claim evenly distribute the buck harvest across the age spectrum from 2.5 years on up.  Plus it encourages doe harvest.

Where do you get it that any buck regulations focus the harvest on yearling / spike bucks? Besides, what is wrong with taking the pressure off of mature bucks that really don't hit their prime until they're 3-4 years old? Again most research shows that in "Any Buck" units 3/4 of buck harvest is from yearling bucks.  Since the vast majority of harvest is on yearling bucks I would consider that focusing on the yearling bucks.

There is some anti studies out but most don't have sources to cite. There is 10x more research that support the fact that APRs work. Plus I've seen it work for myself. In two different states.

I've seen it work here to reduce the number of hunters in the field by the tens of thousands.  If that's what you're after, you're only helping destroy hunting altogether.
Yep its just one big conspiracy me and the other elitist APR guys have.  We are trying to end and cut tens of thousands of hunters.  In fact I bet if you check the whitetail institute and the QDM website that is in their mission statement.  Oh and if a unit goes to 3pt min that isn't aimed at cutting hunter numbers.  If a hunter chooses to quite because it goes to an APR that is their personal choice.  No one made them quite.  They quite on their own.


But of course, all of this discussion really identifies what is happening with management in WA.  The divisions between B/A advocates and any buck advocates is another symptom of the same disease being spread by Resource Allocation: Divide the user groups against one another, keep them fighting and we're never going to unify to hold the AGENCY accountable for all the things it is not doing.

You know Dave your attitude stinks.  The difference between you and me is I posted some research that I said I agreed with and believed to be true.  I never said it was 100% fact.  And if people disagree with me fine.  I will debate my point while they debate theirs in a respectfull manner and have fun doing it.  And until you came here it was cordial and respectfull.  You however come here and say everything you believe is FACT and everyone else that disagrees with you is "dumber than a box of rocks" or "living in denial" I don't care what you think you "know to be fact" because I havn't seen you post anything that proves your point other than "Ive been hunting longer than you have" And your only argument against my data and sources cited is that its some sort of "conspiracy" of QDM.  Really.  That's all you have? 

I would love to debate you.  You seem smart and well informed.  But if your gonna be pompous, arrogant and disrespectfull then I will not respond to you. You don't have to be a jerk to debate people. 

To everyone else I have enjoyed debating you.  Glockster thanks for posting the stuff that goes against APR's.  You must be better at google than me.  I enjoyed reading them.  And while I don't agree with them it is another point of view and I learned some stuff.  I look forward to continueing this debate.  Good night everyone.   

[slim9300]

True spike for general season, meaning it has to be a straight slick 1x1.  And there are a few permits allowed, but not many.

Well that's the problem. It makes no sense to have a special permit area that is also a general spike only area. I would think that this would encourage seriously over harveting bull elk. If it was a general area that was either 5-point or 6-point or better it would be back to "normal" in 5-10 years. Or you could make it strictly a special permit unit that controlled the number of bulls and cows killed which would make very easy to meet objectives. But you can't have both IMHO.

[6x6in6]

True spike for general season, meaning it has to be a straight slick 1x1.  And there are a few permits allowed, but not many.

Well that's the problem. It makes no sense to have a special permit area that is also a general spike only area. I would think that this would encourage seriously over harveting bull elk. If it was a general area that was either 5-point or 6-point or better it would be back to "normal" in 5-10 years. Or you could make it strictly a special permit unit that controlled the number of bulls and cows killed. But you can't have both.

There are very few any bull tags and cow tags issued for the 3-4 GMU's that comprise the Colockum.  It really has a minimal affect on the bull/cow ratio which is around the 10:100 range.  Pathetic!!
You nailed the Colockum on the need for an entirely limited entry hunt and can the general spike only gig.
Can't have that though, the State would lose revenue which is what it's really all about.
I propose the State lose the GMU title and move to RMU's........Revenue Management Units.   

[JimmyHoffa]

A lot of the shaped herds have lots of control over them.  In a different state I used to get to shoot does and small bucks to help the ranchers out.  Those guys had lots of land (no high fence), but were able to keep tabs on animals year to year.  They basically said where and what deer needed to be shot.  Very little poaching and predators were nearly non-existent.  They controlled which deer lived and which ones died.  But that is how they made their money.  It wasn't purely based off of antler points.  You can't get that kind of control on public land like WA. 
It is estimated that poachers kill an amount equal to legal take, so I would imagine that solving that would help the herd more than APR.  Most poachers I've heard of kill bucks, mostly the bigger ones.

[Humptulips]

Well, I'll throw in with Dave on this. APRs are great if you want to reduce hunter success. A young person doesn't have some success over two or three years you don't have a hunter. No one likes a lot of hunters when they go hunting but dang it we need numbers for political success. You think predators need controled. We'll never get that with a smaller base of support.
Scratching my head over this "healthy herds" things. I don't see it. I'ved lived with this 3 point minimum on elk in W WA and there are less elk then ever. Back when it was "any bull" the cows all seemed to get bred. I can't believe it is any different for deer regardless of species.
 I don't see in the studies much evidence of more deer because of APRs just this healthy herds stuff what ever that means.
One other point, The public seems to be real down on trophy hunting and this just seems to reinforce that stereotype.

[Dave Workman]

  The problem is that this state exaggerates the number of elk horribly on the west side. I would say that there is half of the elk today that there were in 1980 in Western WA.

I bow hunt, I'm not lazy, I scout two weeks or more every year, I practice shooting daily, I learned to hunt from someone that knows what he is doing, and I shoot mostly cows in WA. It's really not that hard if you are willing to hunt miles from the truck.

Therein lies a disparity in what I thought we were talking about.  Killing lots of cow elk isn't the point. If we could kill cow elk during a general rifle season without a special permit, a lot of people here could kill an elk almost every weekend of the season. I saw a fair number of cows this season and could have hit some of them with a handgun, they were that close.

We're talking about whether B/A restrictions help produce more bucks or bigger bucks or just healthier herds. Not exactly certain how elk wandered into this, but depending upon where you work and where you hunt, you might have a point about the elk population estimates. Since I don't know where that is, I'll have to take your word for it.

I know some devoted bowhunters and none of them are lazy. I have "seen" a few lazy bowhunters including some guys who road hunt with bows (honest to all the gods in the heavens!) and never could quite figure that one out.    I get away from the roads, too, and have passed up shots at B/A bulls because of the spike-only rule where I hunt. In October, I saw a bunch of bucks down in the Snake breaks and of them, I know of only three that were legal and they all got shot, one of them with ammo I personally handloaded for the guy who fired the shot.

Last year, I drove through Twisp and Winthrop the afternoon/evening before the deer opener. I stopped counting deer at about 100, and they were all hanging around the towns, and I cannot recall seeing anything over 3-point and most of the bucks were in the 2-point category, IIRC.  Here were were, ten years into the B/A management scheme, where we should be seeing (theoretically, anyway) more mature bucks, and that doesn't appear to be the case at all. 

We're debating this on two or three different levels: healthy herd v. B/A restrictions and the number of legal bucks v. any buck regulations and the ability of average people and KIDS to notch a tag and put meat in the cooler.

Humptulips certainly gets it.

And everyone has opinions about what's best.

What's REALLY best is to stop fighting amongst ourselves and transfer that energy to holding the department accountable. 

[Dave Workman]

There are very few any bull tags and cow tags issued for the 3-4 GMU's that comprise the Colockum.  It really has a minimal affect on the bull/cow ratio which is around the 10:100 range.  Pathetic!!
You nailed the Colockum on the need for an entirely limited entry hunt and can the general spike only gig.
Can't have that though, the State would lose revenue which is what it's really all about.
I propose the State lose the GMU title and move to RMU's........Revenue Management Units.   

6-by... part of the problem in the Colockum appears to be tribal hunting, but that's another story for a different day.

I like the "RMU" designation. 

[high country]

A lot of the shaped herds have lots of control over them.  In a different state I used to get to shoot does and small bucks to help the ranchers out.  Those guys had lots of land (no high fence), but were able to keep tabs on animals year to year.  They basically said where and what deer needed to be shot.  Very little poaching and predators were nearly non-existent.  They controlled which deer lived and which ones died.  But that is how they made their money.  It wasn't purely based off of antler points.  You can't get that kind of control on public land like WA. 
It is estimated that poachers kill an amount equal to legal take, so I would imagine that solving that would help the herd more than APR.  Most poachers I've heard of kill bucks, mostly the bigger ones.

Those deer that live on large private lands have other advantages, they rarely see humans and when they do, the humans are of no threat to them. In public land, there is continual multipurpose use of the lands. Tribal hunting and poaching keep deer on their toes 100% of the time. All of this leads to more burned calories in a lower calorie availability setting.

[mdbuck5x5]

I can't speak for everywhere but it the NE in my opinion hunting pressure is only but a small fraction of the strain put on the herds. Predation whether it it be bears, cougars, wolves or coyotes and hard winters have a much more profound affect on them.