Lumenok Poll Results

[huntnphool]

IF you are UNARMED AND THE DOG IS NOT UNLEASHED you cannot be charged.  I have picked apart each element of the RCW/WAC whatever, in their own regs it states walking a dog on a leash is NOT pursuit

+1

[Archeryoutfitters]

Respectfully wrong, I'm not suggesting that you "happen" to find a deer.  I am saying it is NOT illegal to use tracking dogs.  Heck I even suggest your dog wear a tracking vest.  Tracking dogs are PERFECT for outfitters to follow up and find wounded game for clients.  There is NOTHING shady or sneeky about using a tracking dog to find downed game.  If something is not outlawed then it is legal, always has been that way in WA. If you do NOT unsnap the leash and you are not armed you CANNOT be charged with using dogs illegally.  You don't have to do it half heartedly, you don't have to do it like "oh I'm not using this dog to find a downed deer, OH look what I stumbled on".  It's perfectly legal.  Someone, ANYONE prove me wrong!

As of 2010 tracking dogs were not legal  in Washington state according to this web site.      http://www.skinnymoose.com/moosedroppings/2010/04/28/time-to-make-blood-tracking-with-dogs-legal-during-all-big-game-seasons/           but it is in the majority  of the US states there is only 16 states in the US that it is not allowed on any level and guess what Washington is one of them, would really of been nice if it was.     

The website is basing this off information from Enforcement...they are wrong as well.

That may or may not be the case but law enforcement is the one that is going to give you or me the ticket, and your going to have to explained something that only law enforcement has the answer to? but i will get on the phone Tuesday and find out from Olympia. i would think that if there was a way it would be going on now. I'm sure its not a secret just like baiting 10 years ago i had people swear up and down you could not use bait or salt, but any F&G officer would tell you yes you can and will still tell you this being there the ones that are going to give the ticket out, they should know also. 

[Archeryoutfitters]

Machias  I'm not against you, i really hope you are rite on the $ here but i have to be very careful and i can't/wont cross that line in any way what ever the F&G tells me is what i will have to go with but i will keep digging. and i will ask them if i leave any hunting equipment at home and take the dog out and keep it on a leash if it is legal. a simple yes or no

[huntnphool]

 I kind of wish it was illegal, then maybe the granola eatin hippies in the Methow wouldn't be able to walk their dogs, off or on a leash, right through the areas I'm hunting. Are you telling me that these tree huggers are actually in non compliance of the law?

[Snapshot]

If a person is not hunting, Hunt-N-Phoo, it is perfectly legal to be walking a dog on a leash in the woods during hunting season. The gray area is whether a judge would buy the arguement from me (or Fred)  that I was not hunting AT THE TIME that I was found with a leashed dog following a blood trail. It would be true that I'd left my bow in the truck but I would still aiming to affix my tag to a game animal and drag it out of the woods. Whether someone could win the arguement is a point to be pondered. But my point is that we shouldn't have to take the risk; we should be able to use the dog so long as we aren't carrying a hunting weapon and do so without wondering if we are breaking the law or not.

Machias, are you suggesting that this in NOT a gray area? That instead it is cut and dried in the regulations and I am just unable to understand it? Help me out here, please.

[huntnphool]

The gray area is whether a judge would buy the arguement from me (or Fred)  that I was not hunting AT THE TIME that I was found with a leashed dog following a blood trail

 In this country we are still innocent until proven guilty. The preponderance of evidence lies squarly on the shoulders of the prosecution. In this case, unless you are brought up in front of some liberal like Sotomayor, I hardly think Fred walking his dog on a leash in the woods would be evidence enough for a conviction.

[Machias]

Machias  I'm not against you, i really hope you are rite on the $ here but i have to be very careful and i can't/wont cross that line in any way what ever the F&G tells me is what i will have to go with but i will keep digging. and i will ask them if i leave any hunting equipment at home and take the dog out and keep it on a leash if it is legal. a simple yes or no

I TOTALLY understand!!  I have a feeling you will still get the wrong answer though.  But I know as an outfitter you cannot take those types of chances.  Gotcha!!

[Machias]

Snapshot, I 100% agree with you, the regs should spell it out.  You, dog handler, can walk with your dog for the purpose of tracking downed game.  These are the rules, Hunter orange on the dog handler, dog on a 30 foot or less leash (or whatever length they want to say).  Dog cannot be off leash, dog handler cannot be armed with anything other than a handgun for self defense and cannot use said handgun for dispatching wounded game.  Easy to enforce, easy to understand and game can be found and harvested.  If you break the regs down it is clear, at least to me that it is perfectly legal to use blood tracking dogs.  I think the toruble your having is in your head your saying I'm in the act of hunting, which without a weapon your not and allowing a dog controlled by you to pursue, well you cannot have pursuit unless the dog is off leash.  They spell it out in the regs.

[Machias]

Let's break it down:

Page 58: clearly states a dog on a leash is not pursuit. You CANNOT have pursuit without them being off leash and therefore you CANNOT be charged with "pursuing" if there is no "pursuit". Cannot have one without the other.

Page 72: 9. Using dogs: • Hunting wild animals with dogs during any deer or elk modern firearm season is prohibited. • Allowing a dog, owned or controlled by you, to pursue or injure deer or elk or to accompany you while you are hunting deer or elk is prohibited. • Hunting or pursuing any big game animal, bobcat, or coyote with dogs is prohibited, except cougar hunting as permitted by the Fish and Wildlife Commission.   No gun, no bow, no weapon=no hunting!

The whole key is hunting and pursuit, neither of which can occur while the dog is on the leash. No weapon and dog on a leash they cannot cite you according to their own regulations. Everyone gets hung up on the what are you doing while leading the dog when they should realize that until you unsnap the lead you are not pursuing, by their own definition on Page 58: "Transporting a dog(s) in a motorized vehicle or walking a dog on a leash is not pursuit."

[Machias]

One last point, RCW 77.08.010 Definitions:

  (55) "To hunt" and its derivatives means an effort to kill, injure, capture, or harass a wild animal or wild bird.

There have been enough instances in the past few years where Law Enforcement swore up and down something was illegal, i.e. being allowed to carry concealed in the woods WITHOUT a permit.  The WDFW Enforcement Section even had this wrong.  We had a guy here who was a LEO Instructor, teaching class after class of LEOs the WRONG law, even after it was repeatedly pointed out he still would not believe it.  We had the lady in charge of explaining the RCWs and WACs to the Enforcement section be completely wrong about hunting coyotes at night.  They have been wrong on items enough that just because the Enforcement Sections says it one way or the other means very little anymore.   I had the Capt of Region One tell me something a few years ago, so outrageous I had to call Olympia.  They said no he didn't say that, he can't say that.  But he did, no you misunderstood him.  So I got him to put it in writing in an e-mail.  They were suprised.  They have a tough job, but sometimes things that everyone believes is one way or the other and has become common knowledge, is not backed up by real law.

[Archeryoutfitters]

I kind of wish it was illegal, then maybe the granola eatin hippies in the Methow wouldn't be able to walk their dogs, off or on a leash, right through the areas I'm hunting. Are you telling me that these tree huggers are actually in non compliance of the law?

I hear what you are saying load and clear, and if it was me on a individual basis i would be willing to talk the point over if  caught doing it, but if i have a hunter with me and we get ticketed, this is something that i don't want to portray so they are holding all the cards in the hand, in-tell i can get some clarification from the F&G law enforcement, there the ones in control and holding the the hand now a far as i can see.
Just like on the expandable they are legal here in Washington i called Olympia,  they had no problem telling we can carry them in our bow any time we like, and we can shoot what ever we want with them, except for big game.
All i want is there take on it because there the ones doing the enforcement and i don't think that they have a problem telling a person what you can or can,t do or if you are on the rite side of there line, just like with the mechanical broad heads

[Archeryoutfitters]

Let's break it down:

Page 58: clearly states a dog on a leash is not pursuit. You CANNOT have pursuit without them being off leash and therefore you CANNOT be charged with "pursuing" if there is no "pursuit". Cannot have one without the other.

Page 72: 9. Using dogs: • Hunting wild animals with dogs during any deer or elk modern firearm season is prohibited. • Allowing a dog, owned or controlled by you, to pursue or injure deer or elk or to accompany you while you are hunting deer or elk is prohibited. • Hunting or pursuing any big game animal, bobcat, or coyote with dogs is prohibited, except cougar hunting as permitted by the Fish and Wildlife Commission.   No gun, no bow, no weapon=no hunting!

The whole key is hunting and pursuit, neither of which can occur while the dog is on the leash. No weapon and dog on a leash they cannot cite you according to their own regulations. Everyone gets hung up on the what are you doing while leading the dog when they should realize that until you unsnap the lead you are not pursuing, by their own definition on Page 58: "Transporting a dog(s) in a motorized vehicle or walking a dog on a leash is not pursuit."

Thanks for the Info, I am on board with you guys i would love for this to be legal BUT it i read what you just posted rite it says, Hunting or pursuing any big game animal, bobcat, or coyote with dogs is prohibited, except cougar hunting as permitted by the Fish and Wildlife Commission. (pursuing) ANY BIG GAME ANIMAL if you and a dog is following a wounded big game animal  leash or no leash you are pursuing it in there eyes just because the contradict them self's in a earlier statement isn't going to matter at the time of truth,  if you feel you are in the rite very easy way to get to the bottom call the local Medea as soon as you shoot a deer grab your dog and a leash, call fish and game tell them what your doing that would give you the best chance in court.

[Archeryoutfitters]

thanks for the information, i will still call  F&G but i know now from the hunting regs. that the answer is NO. Hunting or pursuing any big game animal, bobcat, or coyote with dogs is prohibited, except cougar hunting as permitted by the Fish and Wildlife Commission.
and no matter how a person want to look at this you are doing just that fallowing/pursuing there's no wiggle room? 

[Machias]

Ok, nothing I can do to help you.  You cannot have pursuit until you unsnap the leash, it's cyrstal clear in the regs.   

[Snapshot]

Pursuit isn't the issue, in my opinion. What draws my attention is that under "Prohibited Hunting Methods" it says a dog may not accompany you while hunting. Leashed or not that says you can't have a dog with you while hunting. So the legal arguement would boil down to whether "while hunting" applies to the act of following a blood trail.