Primitive only season

[General Disarray]

Boneaddict brought this up and mentioned "that's another thread" so I thought I'd go ahead and get that started for him....

I can understand the thinking here, you've got rifle and muzzleloaders seperated into different user groups, why not split bow hunters up??? we've got it pretty good with the seasons they give us now, what do you propose they do to split it up equally?  I'd be curious to see what the ratio is for compounds to traditional? 3 out 4 maybe? I'd be willing to use that ratio and give you a 6 or 7 day deer season in Sept and maybe 2 or 3 days for elk.  Put it right at the beginning, it's too hot to pack that heavy compound around anyways!   Late season? another 4 days or so? That's how the ratio would make it fit.

Would you be able to buy an "archery tag" or would you have to specify your choice of weapons? Define traditional for me? Any bow without cams? Made out of wood? wooden arrow shafts only? no modern camoflage(just threw that one in since I know you guys like your buckskin outfits better!)?

I could see going to something similar to what Oregon does where they have Traditional only units.  But that's going to upset everyone that has been hunting that unit before.  Maybe we should take back the Indian Reservations and make those traditional only? But then the Indians could still raid and attack the camps! Doesn't get much more traditional than that!

Boneaddict, I know what you are saying.  Most bowhunters are hunters and then archers, I consider myself an archer that also hunts.  I don't think dividing the minority that we already are is good idea at all.  It's one of the reasons I refuse to join or promote the WSB because they are so focused on traditional gear as opposed to compounds(stirring a hornet's nest here ).  It is some what sad to see archery, which has long been considered a "traditional" method, so full of technology.  But that is the way of life, some one is always making a better wheel(or cam   ).  I will at least applaud the state in the fact that they do a good job of trying to keep any technology that appears "unfair" out of the woods or other hunting areas.  But then again, thanks to some of that same technology, my 8 year old is going to be able to bowhunt with me this year and may never shoot a deer with a rifle.

Hopefully this becomes a productive thread with some valid points from both sides.

[jackelope]

well...lets see...as a newbie archer and someone who has taken up the sport for the added opportunity and longer seasons, i'd be dead-set against a shorter season for compound bows. i don't see the advantage or the point in seperating seasons(maybe it's cuz i'm new) and in turn i'd sure not like to see that splitting up hunters further.
one additional concern is you'd have another bunch of yahoo's out there with stick-bows shooting too far and inaccurately. shooting traditional is a whole other ball game from shooting a compound.

[Ray]

To me primitive means going down into how things are manufactured.

e.g.

Have a fiberglass laminated bow which doesn't have any compound pulleys; is that considered primitive?
How about if arrows were crafted with synthetic materials or modern machinery? including arrow tips...?

[WDFW-SUX]

Wood arrow wood risers and I'd be ok with expanded opportunity not seperate tag though.  Just add 5 days to the archery seasons for the limited weapon type and all Archery tag holders would have the opportunity if they wanted to.

[Machias]

  Too funny Miles!

[Ray]

I'd hunt with a spear if there was a season for it.

[WDFW-SUX]

I have seen a couple spear prototypes they are as sharp as a broad-head and about as wide as four fingers really really wicked. The guy who had them claimed he had killed two black bears over bait in Alaska with them don't know if its true or not but he had the tools to do it. He said he was contemplating going after a brown bear with one I told him he was nuts.  He said he would wait until a bear was fishing for salmon then he would go for the double lung thrust.  He said he dropped on the blackies from a stand near the bait. 

[jackelope]

http://www.coldsteel.com/spears-high-performance-spears.html

[WDFW-SUX]

Those are the ones.

[boneaddict]

I could see going to something similar to what Oregon does where they have Traditional only units.  But that's going to upset everyone that has been hunting that unit before.  Maybe we should take back the Indian Reservations and make those traditional only? But then the Indians could still raid and attack the camps! Doesn't get much more traditional than that!

  Now you're talking.

[boneaddict]

I wouldn' want to divide up our minority ranks.  I think we need to stick together.  I disagree with your thougts aobut the WSB.  If only for the reason,  I joined up as a compound archer, and have never felt influence in anywy to change.  I did so on my only accord just because of the challenge.  I thik the WSB is important as it takes a user groups strength to fight against the evil lobbyist groups.
I LIKE what Oregon has done with their traditional hunts.  Take a late season hunt lie say ALTA.  This used to be open to archery, but is't anymore to the late season.  Make it a traditional only hunt during the same time frame as the normal late season hunt.  That way it doesn't take away from any of the other hunters.  Make this very restircictive in regards to equipment.  Woodbows only, wooden arrows.  Hell you could even go further and make it flint points only if you want, but that might not be as ethical as there might be mortality caused if you kno what I mean.  Monitor harvest  adjust tag numbers or make it a draw if necessary.
I'm sick of the whole technology thing in regards to all tyes of hunting.  I am especially opposed to it in mzzelloading and in archery, but especially muzzeloading.  I would never want to attack any user group in huntin though.  It just seems idiotic to call some of the modern muzzeloaders a primitive weapon.  T/C encore for example.  Most states are starting to see this.

[General Disarray]

which part, taking back the reservations or doing what Oregon does...? both good ideas to me!


I've got a few friends that are heading to Oregon in August to hunt those Trad only units using a machined riser recurve with sights, release and carbon arrows.... totally legal but I don't think that's exactly what oregon had in mind when they set it up.

I could see going to something similar to what Oregon does where they have Traditional only units.  But that's going to upset everyone that has been hunting that unit before.  Maybe we should take back the Indian Reservations and make those traditional only? But then the Indians could still raid and attack the camps! Doesn't get much more traditional than that!

  Now you're talking.

[Ray]

By the way all savages that want to hunt with spears kick ass

[sisu]

1. I could see going to something similar to what Oregon does where they have Traditional only units.  But that's going to upset everyone that has been hunting that unit before.  Maybe we should take back the Indian Reservations and make those traditional only? But then the Indians could still raid and attack the camps! Doesn't get much more traditional than that!



 2. Most bowhunters are hunters and then archers, I consider myself an archer that also hunts.  I don't think dividing the minority that we already are is good idea at all.  It's one of the reasons I refuse to join or promote the WSB because they are so focused on traditional gear as opposed to compounds(stirring a hornet's nest here ).  It is some what sad to see archery, which has long been considered a "traditional" method, so full of technology.  But that is the way of life, some one is always making a better wheel(or cam   ).

1. Ya, but then I get to hunt with a rolling block black powder metallic cartridge rifle. hahaha


2. This last item is not correct. If you look at several years issues of hunters with their game pictures you will see far more compound WSB members than traditional. In fact the current president is a compound hunter.

[funkster]

I don't see why you would need a whole other season when you can hunt with a recurve or longbow if you want in general bow season. I feel you would see more wounded game and further the opinion that bow hunters just wound animals if this season actually happend.  Most of the longbow or recurve hunter's I see out at the range can't even hit an X at 10yrds let alone 20.

Just alittle FYI Sportsman's Bowhunting mag has an article called P&Y by the numbers and it states that 96% of the hunter's that tagged book bucks used a compound bow!

[funkster]

Did it ever occur to you that that leaves a 4% group of hunter's using primitive weapons. Stick with he subject. We are talking about having a primitive only season and for the WDFW to do so you are going to need a bigger group of hunters. I already know that not all hunter's submit to P&Y so that number isn't 100% accurate but it does give you a good idea how many hunters are using long bows and recurves.  I'am not against using primitive weapons, giving them there own season I'am not for that at all.

[WDFW-SUX]

well by the 4% number traditional archers killed 57 elk state wide in 2005 that includes antlered and antler-less.  Not a big number. For deer they killed 173 also a very small number state wide.

[boneaddict]

If you are not interested in it, and there isn't that many that are, and the harvest is so low, then what harm would it be to satisfy more folks in Washington state, by allowing a traditional only unit or hunt.  It could be yet another oppurtunity without much loss for the department, similiar to Spring Bear.  Besides, it would be fewer hunters interfering with you on the hill in the general.  As for trad guys not being able to hit a broad side of a barn, stand out there at 60 yards  and see if I can bounce a rubber tip off your butt.  Ethically I wouldn't shoot that far hunting, but to prove a point......

[funkster]

Did it ever occur to you that that leaves a 4% group of hunter's using primitive weapons. Stick with he subject.

Did it ever occur to you that you were the one that got off the topic with your little FYI?  Also you are not even thinking before you type.  YOU said in your previous post that 96% of the hunters that tagged book bucks was with a compound.. Right??  not 96% of archers hunt with compounds....  Now your confusing yourself and thinking that the 4% that tagged book bucks with traditional is actually the percentage of people that hunt with traditional weapons.  So take your own advice and stick to the subject so you don't confuse yourself.  Thanks.

I still think primitive should be spears not bows

I was just saying that a primitive weapon season would not be that large of a user group,sorry o' great one that I didn't make myself clear. The WDFW has enough problems with the season's that already exist,why create more problems for them. You already have something against me from the other thread and you are looking for a argument so that is all I have to say to you.

Boneaddict, I will pay you $100 if you could put 3 arrows even 2 inches outside of an X at 60 yrds with a recurve or a longbow with no sights and wood arrows.

[jackelope]

[jackelope]

back on track gang...

[boneaddict]

Damn....where's the video camera when you need it.  I was  out doing just that when all of this talk was happening.  Nothing like shooting with sweat running in your eyes.  Took me 5 arrows though.  I think mostly I said that I could hit your butt at 60 yards, making a point about the 20 yard comment.  

[General Disarray]

My suggestion would be to take a unit that isn't open to any archery general season like 342 Umtanum and give the Traditional guys a season in there.  If you try adding days that just means they'll take away some days somewhere else.  they have a certain number to work with and have to balance accordingly.

[boneaddict]

Exactly, and they could monitor harvest, with mandatory check in, and they could govern the amount of tags with population goals.

[Ray]

I'm ready for primitive season 

[Ridgerunner]

I don't think there are the numbers to support a primitive only season personally.

[WDFW-SUX]

I talked to the powers that be about this subject last year and they told me that it would not happen because they dont want to add to the number of days that animals are hunted every fall. Between the three season they feel that they are maxed out. They said the only way to make primitive wepon seasons  happen would be to eliminate user days for one of the user groups most likely archery and that ain't going to happen.

[boneaddict]

I definately wouldn't want to do that.  I think there are other ways. 

[sisu]

After reading all this here is my 3 cents. Archery no matter if you use compound, recurve, long bow it's STILL archery and it's STILL somewhat primitive.
Archers have enough problems with the public image of hunting Bambi with out dividing us within our own ranks.
Sisu

[funkster]

After reading all this here is my 3 cents. Archery no matter if you use compound, recurve, long bow it's STILL archery and it's STILL somewhat primitive.
Archers have enough problems with the public image of hunting Bambi with out dividing us within our own ranks.
Sisu

That is what I was trying to say but I guess it did not come out right!!

Miles,no hard feelings. I just felt that after every post I made in the other thread you would come back with a smart comment like "hitting a running elk at 80 yards" I never said anything close to that.  I can hash it and I have no hard feelings. I really am a jokester by nature!!

Bonaddict, offer still stands, lets see the video man!!! I don't know how many of you all watch Tred Barta or how you feel about him, but he does hold alot of big game records. He seems to have alot of knowledge about primitive hunting and seems to be a pretty good shot. However, when he came out west for a deer hunt I saw him miss over 30 arrows at yardages 25 to 30 before he connected.He did say it is much harder hunting out west than it is back east with primitive gear.

[bowhuntin]

After reading everyones posts I would definetley support a primitive season, but I think that it should probably coincide with the season for compound bows but just open up certain units for the primitive guys that are usually closed during the general season.

[boneaddict]

I guess what I like about Tred, is that he is fairly entertaining, and he has no problem about appearing to be a *censored*, in other words he doen't video out much. I feel his shooting skills have something to be desired.  I watched one of his shows where he gut shot a doe and then couldn't find her.  I appreciate the honesty behind it, but thought it was appaling, and felt it was additional fodder for the antis.

[Slenk]

I have been hallering for year for a primitive muzzleloader season .
Can't even buy real blackpowder in Yakima any more.
Well just wait till OSHA get done with us . Well be hunting with sticks and stones . And then they will pass a law on them.
Slenk

[sisu]

I

I have been hallering for year for a primitive muzzleloader season .
Can't even buy real blackpowder in Yakima any more.
Well just wait till OSHA get done with us . Well be hunting with sticks and stones . And then they will pass a law on them.
Slenk

I wonder if I could get proficient with a throwing stick and spear?

[boneaddict]

Be careful Slenk, there are even fewer primitive front stuffers as there are Trad bowmen.

Here's Idabooner practicing with his homemade front stuffer.

[Choclab]

IT'S A WASTE OF TIME TRYING TO SEPARATE THE TWO......who cares.....I would be pissed as hell if they shortend my season so some traditionalists could go out do the same damn thing I would....shoot an ARROW. Hell, compound users help up the stats for al the archers. It would be like trying to separate mini fruits from regulars fruits.......There is a differance, but not enough to care...If you wanna go be a purist or traditionalist...go to a "primitive" only archery area...they do have them in Wa. Then again...what constitutes "traditional"? How anal do you wanna be....some purists only believe in hand made bows out of all natural materials.....you willing to do the extra work and learn a whole new wayu of doing things (that could take years to master) for a shorter season...HELL no....subject dropped as far as I am concerned

[Choclab]

After reading everyones posts I would definetley support a primitive season, but I think that it should probably coincide with the season for compound bows but just open up certain units for the primitive guys that are usually closed during the general season.

They already have those....

[General Disarray]

After reading everyones posts I would definetley support a primitive season, but I think that it should probably coincide with the season for compound bows but just open up certain units for the primitive guys that are usually closed during the general season.

In Washington State??? don't think so


They already have those....

[Slenk]

Be careful Slenk, there are even fewer primitive front stuffers as there are Trad bowmen.

Here's Idabooner practicing with his homemade front stuffer.

Careful not me I killed game with a longbow w/cedar shafts that I made by hand , before most of the guys on the board were even born . Back in the days when we only had ONE season ,no archery or muzzleloader seasons . Just a general season and we used a metal tag on our animals . The WFG started these other seasons for primitave weapons and thats the way they should be period . And our oldest son still does this over in Idaho.
And that was before I started useing a flintlock for hunting.
Slenk

[GoldTip]

I would truly HATE to see Washington go with anything resembling a "traditional" type archery season.  I hunt with a compound and I want to get that out of the way from the start.  This in no way tempers or affects my decision on how I feel. I have shot traditional well in the past and could be ready to hunt for a season for it in a month.
 
My feeling is this type of season would lead to a further fractionation of the bow hunting community and would lead to further arguments of who gets what season and when the season is and what animals may be taken during this season or that season.  There is no way around that, it is human nature to believe that "the other guy" is getting it better than I am or he is or she is.  My opinion is based only on my belief that doing or adding some sort of season like this could truly lead to less hunting opportunities for all of us, as once this happens,  I believe the infighting within the bowhunting ranks would only increase.  And that I believe could eventually lead to our demise.

[boneaddict]

As stated before, I'd like to see them open up a unit that is closed and thats it.  Definatley don't infringe on what we have in regards to normal archery seasons.  I think harvest would be low for the most part, and it might just aid in some satisfaction for the hunters.    Hell, open up some of these ceded areas that are closed for everyone but the Yakimas, let the whiteboys carry around their longbows while the Indians carry around their 308s.  Wouldn't that be ironic.

[Ray]

I agree with you GoldTip. There's nothing to really be accomplished with regards to yet another season other than division amongst hunters. I do like the idea of opening up new places so I can sneak around with a bow and watch the native run around with 308s.

[GoldTip]

bone and huntwa,  I have to agree, opening up some of those ceded area's to a stickbow and watching the natives running around with a scoped rifle would be pretty darned funny.  I'd love to get a picture of that, could you imagine the look on the natives face, especially if we wore face paint, errr, I mean camo make up......

[boneaddict]

I'd like to see their face when I came out with a huge royal with thick massive beams and killer backscratchers. 

[sisu]

You know what they say: Wish in one hand and poop in the other and see which one fills up first.
It seems like a good idea but it'll never happen unless a tribe would say..."hey lets let the non-natives come in here with traditional gear but we get to use modern". Then it would happen. Until then kiss it off.

[boneaddict]

Nah, the tribe shouldn't have anything to say about it, its public ground, and managed by the WDFW.  Its up to them.  It could be as happy as OK that sounds good (Ottos world) or No way in hell, give evrything to the indians (WDFW-Sux world)