Talk to me a bit about AR's....

[Hornseeker]

Ive got several AR resources, but I'd like to hear some other info from folks that have been shooting and buying them. My buddy has a Stag ARms with a target trig and bull barrel (I think its 24 inches) that is pretty much my dream gun. Its also threaded and suppressed. The thing shoots groups as good as anything I've ever seen. UNsuppressed I think I can get one for near $1200... maybe less... Is there another brand that will drive tacks like this gun for less money? What options do I have for a build? I want... accurrate... good trig... (accurrate...to like 500 yards... for PD"s and ground squirrels)...

Whatchya think!

[FC]

Build your own lower at the least, you can pick your trigger, grip, stock, etc. You can buy an assembled upper pretty reasonably if you like and get very good accuracy. My varminter AR has a 24" fluted stainless bull barrel (dpms), it's both ridiculously accurate and ridiculously heavy. If you are doing a lot of stand type hunting you would love it, if you had to pack it around a lot you might want to hire a gun-bearer  as it weighs about 13lbs. The trigger is great (rock river arms national match), it's everyone's favorite to shoot due to it's freakish accuracy and ease of use.

[Hornseeker]

Sounds like something I'd like FC...especially suppressed... We were shooting PD's with the suppressed Stag this summer...no ear muffs... PDs never knew what was going on... wow...

[dannysdaddy]

they are all very accurate.  I bought my curent one as it had everything i was going to build already in it and it was cheaper.  it is a rock river operator 2 series and probably one of the best ar's I have shot.  a bit on the heavy side but well worth it.  its all about what you want.

[coop2424]

I have a stag lower that i put together with a kit and did some trigger work and topped it with a 20" dpms bull barrel upper and it is a tack driver also.  Like was stated above though it is a very heavy gun but well worth it in my mind...

[carpsniperg2]

I try and stay atleast 18"+ I have never had luck getting great groups with the 16" barrels. I really like my 24" barrel and run it more then any of the others.

[Hornseeker]

SO when you say "they are all accurrate"... I have a hard time with that... that just simply isn't possible... I cant imagine 16" barrels are going to give the accurracy I'm looking for. ANyhow... good info in general, I am pretty excited to build one or buy one and put the hammer down on some yotes and PD's... especially with my new 6-20 VXIII....

[JohnVH]

whats a PD?

Whats considered accurate? I want to build a whole AR from parts someday after my grendel build, but for lugging around, I was thinking 18-20"

[FALFire]

Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy alone, it does play an important role in velocity. Just take a look at some of the TC stuff out there and Savage Strikers, their accuracy can be staggering. So if you want accuracy at extreme ranges, 600 yards or more then you will also want the longer barrel for greater velocity but too, you will want the proper twist rate to get your bullet to the target in a timely manner. I've seen 16" barrels shoot unbelievably well out to 300 plus yards.

For the best of both worlds the 20" 8 twist seem to have a slight edge especially if you plan on shooting the longer/heavier bullets such as the 70 VLD's and 77gr Sierras. Now, keep in mind, I'm speaking only of the 223/5.56 round.

[FALFire]

John.....

PD= Prairie Dogs

An 18 to 20 inch barrel is ideal for most applications.

[JohnVH]

ahhh, dont have them here, so didnt think about those!

how many inches are we talking is a good group? Internet searching shows 1-3moa with box ammo?

[Biggerhammer]

SO when you say "they are all accurrate"... I have a hard time with that... that just simply isn't possible... I cant imagine 16" barrels are going to give the accurracy I'm looking for. ANyhow... good info in general, I am pretty excited to build one or buy one and put the hammer down on some yotes and PD's... especially with my new 6-20 VXIII....

This is a 200 yard group from a 90.00 used 9 Twist, 16" Model 1 barrel , I put the upper together last spring.






This is a 300 yard group with Factory 123 A-Max Hornady match ammo from a 17" 6.5 Grendel barrel. The short barrels will shoot.

[Hornseeker]

FAL...good point... yeah, longer good for long range because increased velocity will make it easier to hold a group... 20 inches does sound good.

John... I'd like to stay under 1 inch at 100... well under!

So... for $1055... can I do better than this rifle if I "build my own"?
http://www.stagarms.com/product_info.php?cPath=13_22&products_id=314

[Hornseeker]

well yes...I guess the short barrels will shoot!!!

[Hornseeker]

OK...if I reload...what is the cost diff between the grendel and the 5.56?

[FC]

ahhh, dont have them here, so didnt think about those!

how many inches are we talking is a good group? Internet searching shows 1-3moa with box ammo?

That would be piss poor accuracy, with a decent barrel and ammo it likes you can expect 1.5 MOA at the worst, if that was truthfully all the better that I could get from a given build I would change the barrel. Obviously we are talking about what the rifle is capable of here though and not an individual shooter.

1-3" is more like an AK will group.

[Biggerhammer]

OK...if I reload...what is the cost diff between the grendel and the 5.56?

The Gendel is much more expensive to shoot, cover your bases with a .223/5.56 upper in a 7 twist or so then put a Grendel upper together if you feel the need to. I put way more through the 5.56 than the Grendel.

[dannysdaddy]

SO when you say "they are all accurrate"... I have a hard time with that... that just simply isn't possible... I cant imagine 16" barrels are going to give the accurracy I'm looking for. ANyhow... good info in general, I am pretty excited to build one or buy one and put the hammer down on some yotes and PD's... especially with my new 6-20 VXIII....

do some research.  barrel length will affect velocity not accuracy.  there have been plenty of tests done on the ar's going from a 26" down to 10" and holding the same groupings.  I do believe a longer barrel will be more accurate at extreme distance do to the velocity increase. I'll put my 16" up against most guns any day. 

[carpsniperg2]

especially with my new 6-20 VXIII....

So where did you find one of those spendy things

I have shot a lot of the heavy end bullets threw several ar-15's that I have had with a 16" barrel. None of them would shoot very well for me. Then when I would drop them in a 20-24" length they would tack in there. Must just be me I gues

[Biggerhammer]

especially with my new 6-20 VXIII....

So where did you find one of those spendy things

I have shot a lot of the heavy end bullets threw several ar-15's that I have had with a 16" barrel. None of them would shoot very well for me. Then when I would drop them in a 20-24" length they would tack in there. Must just be me I gues

It's all about twist and bullets weight the rest just happens. Unless? I will quote the internet famous " NOBODY" The guy just has a way with words, but it's hard to argue the truth to it.

" Grab a sh*t rifle,hang sh*t mounts,frost it with sh*t rings and a sh*t scope,then go out on a limb and feed it sh*t fodder,with a dumbf**k driving it and you'll always reap at least 3 f***ing pages of comedy.

NOBODY.

[carpsniperg2]

  of course its about the twist rates and bullet weights

I think the original m-16 came out with like a 1-14" twist. Way to slow for the heavy/longer bullets. That's why the military ditched it and went to the much quicker 1:7". Most ar-15's now days come with a 1:9" twist for the mid weight bullets that's perfect. When you get into the heavy end the 1:7" twist is the way to go in my mind. There is going to be a difference no matter what. Like I have said I have yet to see a 1:9 shoot the 60+ grain bullets well.

[carpsniperg2]

I should say that I feel the best of both worlds is the 20" 1:8 twist. It fits me the best thats for sure. I don't ever shoot anything less the 52 grains out of any of mine.

[Biggerhammer]

I should say that I feel the best of both worlds is the 20" 1:8 twist. It fits me the best thats for sure. I don't ever shoot anything less the 52 grains out of any of mine.

I've tried running the 62gr SS109's through 3 different 9 twists and it was a no go. A half MOA carbine turned into 8" groups at 100 yards. If your going to stay heavy the 7 is great, if you still want to shoot  the 50gr or so varmint bullets the 8 is the way to go. The 77's in a 7 twist are a great combo.

[Hornseeker]

Thanks for the good discussion... cant wait to get one of these...it'll be 6 months though

[Todd_ID]

Bravo Company has a very good 1:7 twist barrel and uppers.  I have a 16" from them that shoots the Speer 70 grain varmint very well.  I've shot several 3/8" 5 shot 100 yard groups with a stock trigger.  I had a Gisselle trigger on my X-Mas list, but Santa didn't have the clarity of vision that I did about it.   

[Biggerhammer]

"I had a Gisselle trigger on my X-Mas list, but Santa didn't have the clarity of vision that I did about it."

You were flat screwed! I wouldn't stand for it, I would go corner Santa's little helper and come to a agreement on where the trigger needs to be, one way or another.   Who's driving your bus? You or Santa's little helper?

[Hornseeker]

So, what does a good quality build cost? Can I do a good one for under a k?

Show me a list of parts!

Dealers...

[Todd_ID]

"I had a Gisselle trigger on my X-Mas list, but Santa didn't have the clarity of vision that I did about it."

You were flat screwed! I wouldn't stand for it, I would go corner Santa's little helper and come to a agreement on where the trigger needs to be, one way or another.   Who's driving your bus? You or Santa's little helper?

I tried that, man, but she, I mean Santa, told me where to stick that trigger, but I can't mention it on a public site.  Something about the sun...I don't know... 

Hornseeker, Bravo Company is a good place to get high quality mil-spec stuff at good prices.  You'll find cheaper elsewhere, but you won't find better.  An AR is an AR only in that the parts are all supposed to be the same.  The differences come in machining quality, price and testing standards.  Bravo Company is at the top of the heap for value, in my opinion.  LaRue, Wilson, Les Baer, Knight, Armalite, and Colt are all great names that you pay huge money for.  Bravo Company gets you the same quality or better as any of them for half the price.  The barrel and trigger is where you make your shot count.  The rest just makes the rifle go bang.

[demontang]

I can tell you a 16" bull barrel is LOUD and pretty heavy!!! Mine shoots under 1" even with crap ammo, I do like the short for heavy cover yote hunting but man do I pay when I shoot a heavy barrel thats fluted and 20-24" would be nice, and most good companies out there will shot under 1" groups. Oly has broach cut barrel that is pretty nice and The ones Ive shot where posting .5 or under groups. The NM rock river what .75 or under, and the hbar colt was .75 or under too.

[carpsniperg2]

So, what does a good quality build cost? Can I do a good one for under a k?

Show me a list of parts!

Dealers...

Yes for sure. Gun broker also has some great deals on quality guns for under 1k that people have put together. You can also buy a lower seperate and then buy a lower of your choice and have a sweet gun.

Here is a few of my fave for ar-15 stuff. I have also been planning a build as well. So I have been messing around on a few of them more then I should

http://www.ar15-kits.com/index1.html

http://westernsportonline.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=37

http://dynamicarmament.com/items/AR-15-COMPLETE-UPPERS/list.htm

http://akpartskits.com/cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6_16

http://ar15performance.com/6_8_x_43_18__spr_ss_uppers_

[Hornseeker]

Is this Remington or the DPMS I am seeing that is all camo'd out and such at Cabelas for 899..,..any good? Better to build one?

[FC]

Those are good rifles with crappy triggers, you could build one with a good trigger for about the same amount of money.

[carpsniperg2]

Bushmaster has a new all cammo predator and varmint coming out in all cammo and I think they went to a better grip as well. I saw it on there site the other day when I was looking into a couple projects   Of course dpms and remington and bushmaster are all sister companies.

I just got a year end bonus and I know what its going into To much AR talk for me not to build one