Proposed cougar season-Meeting Summary.

[Kain]

Had the meeting with Dr Martorello today.  We ended up using a web meeting program instead of both of us having to drive over an hour.  Worked out great. 

For those that dont know the proposed cougar season will have an early and late season.  The early hunting season would begin Sept 1st and end Dec 31st.  Each new cougar unit would have a harvest guidelines.   If that harvest guideline is not met a late season would start on Jan 1st and go until March 31st.   If that harvest guideline is close to meeting or exceeded during the early season then there would be a review and a decision would be made to close the late season or allow it to open.  This decision will depend on the age and sex of the harvested cats.

The harvest guidelines are NOT a quota where the season will instantly close once it is met.  It is simply a target goal for harvest in each new cougar unit.  The early season will be open until Dec 31st regardless if the guideline is met early or not.  There are only a few units where they foresee the possibility of these guidelines being met within the early season.  In the majority of the state the season will be open from Sept 1st-March 31st.  In the units where the harvest is reached during late season the season could close at anytime if they make that decision.


Now for how the harvest guideline numbers are decided for each unit.  The numbers are determined by taking 14% +/- 2% of the estimated population in each unit.  They have determined that taking 12-16% of the cougar population is the ideal range to keep cougar population stable while still maintaining age/sex ratios.  Obviously taking too many females can cause a population sink but they also believe that taking too many adult males causes a breakdown in the population structure because older toms are no longer killing enough young ones.  This causes the young toms to occupy the areas left open by the older toms but they dont keep set territories. 

I got permission from Dr. Martorello to record the meeting.  Unfortunately my camera records video for only 10 minutes and then stops so there are some gaps in the presentation.  I also had to change the cards out a couple time.  I will try to get these uploaded today but it is taking a very long time to upload.

More to come

[denali]

Thanks Kain
 

[Machias]

Thanks Kain!

One problem I see is the entire thing is built on their population WAG, and it's just that a WAG.

[Kain]

Thanks Kain!

One problem I see is the entire thing is built on their population WAG, and it's just that a WAG.

I hear ya.  I mentioned that to him and he tries to explain it in the videos.  Overall I think I like the proposed season with the harvest guidelines but I think we should try to get it returned to starting in Aug.  The extra month would be very few cats harvested but would add that much more opportunity for dedicated cougar hunters, make the increase cost of cougar tags more worth it and keep the season in line with the start of bear season.   

[Kain]

Most units wont even reach the harvest guidelines and the very few that do might open for late season anyway depending on what cats are harvested. 

[fair-chase]

  Good job Kain. Thanks for doing this. Also thanks go out to Dr. Martorello for taking the time to go over this so we could get a better understanding of what the department is thinking. Looking forward to seeing the rest.

[Machias]

Thanks Kain!

One problem I see is the entire thing is built on their population WAG, and it's just that a WAG.

I hear ya.  I mentioned that to him and he tries to explain it in the videos.  Overall I think I like the proposed season with the harvest guidelines but I think we should try to get it returned to starting in Aug.  The extra month would be very few cats harvested but would add that much more opportunity for dedicated cougar hunters, make the increase cost of cougar tags more worth it and keep the season in line with the start of bear season.   

Agreed!!

[buckfvr]

Well then, have them open bear aug 1stwhile youre at it...................everywhere.

[NWWABOWHNTR]

good job Kain

[Kain]

These videos should have been posted first.  These videos are where he explained some of the science and research behind their population estimates and theories on population structures.

[Kain]

Well it might be a bit harsh but here is the letter I sent.  Feel free to use it if you like.  Or flame away.

Dear WDFW and Commission,

   Hunters in this country have a strong passion for conservation and love of our wildlife.  We have proven for over a hundred years that we will use that passion and our dollars to protect wildlife and lands.  All we have ever asked in return is that we have access to our lands and harvest all the excess that sound science will permit.
 
I feel this is important to point out when you consider management of our predator species and in this case cougars.  We all can agree that cougars absolutely need to be managed and that management should be done through public hunting whenever possible.  Three years ago this commission implemented changes to cougar seasons and harvest methods that have nothing to do with any biological, conservation or safety need and were made in part due to pressure from anti-hunting groups.  According to the 2009-2015 game management plan cougar population were stable across a vast majority of the state.  Despite that fact the department and this commission decided to remove four months from the general season, reduce the tags from 2  down to 1, and implement weapons restricted seasons.  Massive changes to a hunting season on a species that was considered stable.  With that in mind I would like to remind this commission and the department of  their legislative mandate which can be found here http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=77.04.012.  Simplified it says that this commission should authorize the taking of wildlife at times, places, or in manners that do not impair the resource and “attempt to maximize public recreational hunting opportunities for all citizens”.  Nowhere does it say that hunting opportunity should be limited due to anti hunting opinions.  I ask that you make sure that all current hunting regulations and futures changes meet that mandate. 

Currently the game managers with the WDFW are proposing an increase in cougar season with a harvest guideline that would end late cougar season in any unit where those number were reached.  The department has given us very specific numbers for each new cougar manager unit that maintains a healthy stable cougar population.  Now that we know these harvest guideline numbers I would ask you to consider the fact that before our cougar season was stolen from us in 2008, the numbers of harvested cats by boot hunters, very rarely reached these new harvest guideline numbers.  This is with a season that started in August and ran until the end March with 2 tags.  If over-harvest protections were in place why is the department not recommending a return to that season length or longer?  I am afraid that the answer has nothing to do with science or sound game management but is a policy decision by the WDFW to limit a minority group of hunters season.  Policy that it does not apply to other hunted species like black bears spring season and August start of fall season.  This is discrimination.  The department is knowingly and deliberately limiting cougar hunting season despite years of harvest reports and sound science supporting a longer season and protections in place to protect against over harvest.  I ask this commission to follow its legislative mandate and correct this immediately by implementing the harvest guideline protections and returning our cougar hunting season to pre-2008 regulations.

Thank you very much for your time,
Naithan Kain and family.

[rasbo]

I like that.

[Kain]

I like that.

Thanks.

[Kain]

Today is the last day for public comment on the proposed season changes.

[CementFinisher]

Thanks kain

[Special T]

So i just got done watching this.  from the WDFW own words and studies only 6 PMU's come close to its harvest goals of 12-18% without the use of dogs. What does that tell us? we could kill a hell of a lot more cougars in most GMU's and not affect  the numbers. Even the WDFW rep on this interview has stated that the lack of more liberal seasons are a POLITICAL restriction. I would argue that with out the use of dogs we are WASTING a valuable resource, because most GMUs are not able to meet the harvest goals... Not to mention that an abundance of cougar reduces opportunity for game, deer and elk, that is much more sought after by boot hunters than cougars. I head a lot of IDK from this rep. So why would we reduce opportunity when the likely hood of increased harvest does not increase dramatically? I would imagine that if you look at harvest info most cats are likely shot during existing seasons, OR when there is snow on the ground.  The WDFW must not look too closely at its own stats if they cannot figure out that deer and elk hunting is more popular than cougar hunting, especially when its limited to boot hunting only.  It would seem from WDFW research that if there was an over harvest in one unit for some reason, there is so much competition for space that a neighboring unit would likely provide a replacement.

This kid of reminds me of shooting coyotes on my brother in laws farm. We shoot them year round, male, female, pups and all... NEVER is their a shortage. dogs from the dry land or neighboring areas fill the void.

Kain thanks for the video posts and securing the ability to record. it was hard to read the spread sheet online tho.

What was it like 6 PMU's that they thought MAY come close to harvest goals? Sounds to me that the WDFW own stats show we need to do more to kill cats, or they won't be harvested by hunters, just killed by other means. 

[Machias]

I agree with everything you said, just one thing, you cannot compare yotes to cats.  Yotes have been shown over and over in studies that if you harvest large numbers or there is a disease that knocks their numbers down they have bigger and more litters, not so with lions.

[buckfvr]

Low hunter success rates do little to encourage most hunters to pursue cats......Truth is since wdfw does nothing to encourage predator hunting, as hunters, we need to identify the problem animals, and make an effort.  Since it will be some time before we can hunt wolves ( if ever ),  we need to do what we can about the rest of the deer and elk eating machines......and get serious about it.   

[Special T]

Machias you are right. let me clarify.  there are only 6 PMU's or so that COULD reach the WDFW harvest limit/goal... Lets just say that an over harvest does occure in one of those areas.  The surrounding areas get little preasure and come no where near havest goals. So what happens? younger toms and femals find thier way into this now  "open" territory...   I guess the comparision i was trying tomake betwen Yotes and Cats was thier ability to seek out unclaimed land... 

Certian areas meet harvest goals because of landscape, deer elk hunting preasure ect. 

if they use this study work to bring back hound hunting so that we can be more selective about harvest, then i think its great. If they are concerned about harvest by only boot hunting, it is a waste of time... Good research, and cool that we are the first in the west to have such a detailed study with differnt kinds of pressure to compare it to...   

[Kain]

All the studies that the WDFW performed showed that there was NO change in population total numbers in heavily hunted population.  Only the age structure changed to mean more young cats survived. 

He mentions in the video that the vast majority of harvested cats are taken during deer and elk seasons.  The amount of cats taken outside that time is very low.  Boot hunters will have zero impact on population numbers and social structure even with unlimited opportunity.  Those six or seven units that average over the limit is only by one or two cats in most cases.  That is why I sent the letter I did.  The WDFW is limiting our opportunity because of image and political reasons.  Like he said in the video.  He mentioned that they dont want to hunt cats in the spring because there are more kittens born then but they do not have the same policy when it comes to black bear where they are actually increasing spring opportunity.  This lack of consistency really hurts the WDFW's credibility.  Many think there is no longer any cred anyways. Especially when it comes to predators.

[Special T]

I would agree that the study says ther should be MORE opportunity. I thought it was ironic that they kind of adressed the lack of trust with the WDFW.  Ironic because it sounds like the study was good, and even the presenter said several times that certian decisions were political. 

[Machias]

Machias you are right. let me clarify.  there are only 6 PMU's or so that COULD reach the WDFW harvest limit/goal... Lets just say that an over harvest does occure in one of those areas.  The surrounding areas get little preasure and come no where near havest goals. So what happens? younger toms and femals find thier way into this now  "open" territory...   I guess the comparision i was trying tomake betwen Yotes and Cats was thier ability to seek out unclaimed land...   

Totally agree!!

[Kain]

I would agree that the study says ther should be MORE opportunity. I thought it was ironic that they kind of adressed the lack of trust with the WDFW.  Ironic because it sounds like the study was good, and even the presenter said several times that certian decisions were political. 

I have met and talked with Dr Martorello a few times now.  He is a good guy and I think he tells it like it is.  He does not hide the fact that some decisions are based on "policy" and not maximizing hunter opportunity.  He knows hunters dont trust these numbers and does his best to explain how they come up with them.  The population estimates of 1900-2100 cats he explains is only for cats over two years old and is basically only half the cats out there.  The problem is that the WDFW is trying to make some kind of compromise for all the anti hunters and actual management is suffering because of it. 

[BOWHUNTER45]

Kain.. I like the way you wrote the letter    Nice work !

[Kain]

Kain.. I like the way you wrote the letter    Nice work !

Thanks.  I probably could have been more diplomatic but that does not seem to get any results and I dont think I said anything that isnt true.  Sometimes saying what you really feel works and sometimes it makes you look like an ass.    

[Special T]

I think its good to be polite but blunt. Don't let the WDFW Confuse politeness with stupidity.  I've hears some real BS jobs and they were a lot more convincing than what i have heard on this subject... Good to hear the the Dr. M is a straight shooter. too bad there aren't more of them.

[nontypical176]

I always wished the cougar season was open during spring turkey.  Have a buddy thats called in cougars on 2 occasions.....well he called in one and saw another one stalking him before he even got set up the second time.  Both were close enough to put down with the turkey loads he had in the shotgun, said he was a little shaken on both occasions.  Be a shame to shoot one in self defense and not be in a legal season.  Lots of people we talk to in the area we hunt turkeys have seen cats while hunting birds....opportunity lost I suppose.  Good job on your efforts Kain.  It would be fun to be able to take a cougar again while we are out hunting coons and bobcats.

[Kain]

Something is not adding up.

OK so I added all of the harvest guideline numbers from http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2012/wsr_12-04-098.pdf together and got 205-277.  Supposedly this is 12%-16% of all the huntable cats in WA.  But if I calculate 12-16% of the estimated cougar population of 1900-2100 cats I get:

   1900        -      2100
12%  16%       12% 16%
(228-304)   -   (252-336). 

Far higher than the guideline numbers and according to Dr Martorello this does not even include subadults.  Is my math way off here? 

[Special T]

Is your number larger due to no factoring in road kills and such? or was that why we needed to stay in the 12-18% range.
 Since Dr. M seems like a straight shooter i woudl ask him... you math is right to me...

[Kain]

Is your number larger due to no factoring in road kills and such? or was that why we needed to stay in the 12-18% range.
 Since Dr. M seems like a straight shooter i woudl ask him... you math is right to me...

Yes 12-16% is just the number of cats we can hunt.  It does not include all mortality like cougar damage/safety removals and road kill.  If we go back to pre 2008 regulation the average number of cats that were taken was around 200/year.  This include all harvest methods like the pilot program and damage removals.  There is just no way boot hunters can have any effect on reducing or maintaining cougar populations even with unlimited opportunity.

Year   Female   Total cats            Source
2010     78          165            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2010/reports/cougar.php
2009     72          142            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/reports/cougar.php
2008    106          188            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2008/reports/cougar.php
2007    100          201            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2007/cougar.php
2006     96          200            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2006/cougar.php
2005     78          202            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2005/cougar.php
2004    102          208            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2004/cougar.pdf

[Special T]

Well my guess would be they took a lower spread to come to matching where boot hunters are going to be able to harvest. Since this is political, that would make the least ammount of waves unless you dive deep into the numbers. Thier spread still falls within  the "real" spread. By being concerned and wanting to have a "Conservative" harvest they get to play the good guy, while sidestepping the real harvest issues. 

[Kain]

Well I emailed him with my numbers and asked for clarification.  I will let you all know what the answer is.

[Kain]

Well my guess would be they took a lower spread to come to matching where boot hunters are going to be able to harvest. Since this is political, that would make the least ammount of waves unless you dive deep into the numbers. Thier spread still falls within  the "real" spread. By being concerned and wanting to have a "Conservative" harvest they get to play the good guy, while sidestepping the real harvest issues. 

The actual precentages were supposed to be 12-16%.  I changed my earlier posts math to fix it.

Still

According to the video when I mention the distrust of the numbers he explained the the estimated population was of cougar over 2 years old.  He also said that they included the subadults into the harvest guideline and that that number was around 25% more.  The harvest guideline they have dont even meet the minimum estimates let alone adding in the subadults. 

[Special T]

 

[nontypical176]

When I contacted the WDFW about cougar seasons...did it when they went from March 31 to Dec 31....I was told that we only have a cougar season because the state makes money from it.  There has never been a cougar study on the west side of the cascade mountains.  The reason hounds were cut and the seasons shortened was because of the pressure from the environmental wackydoos.  And that it is very difficult for the WDFW to keep pushing for any predator hunting period because of the pressure from the environmental wackydoos.  The same freaks that think we need wolves. 

I like Kains math...look at the percentages...carry the one...subtract the enviro idiots....adjust for the fact that there has never been a cougar shortage in washington...and let us go hunting.  Makes perfect sense.

[Amos 33]

They might be useing the calculator that the IRS uses, their numbers and mine never do match.
Thanks for the time and efort your putting in to this Kain, it realy is apreciated.

[bearpaw]

KAIN, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK....

On another note, I have felt positive with every contact I have had with Martorello, he does not seem at all like a *censored*ter, Even though I am sure he is not in favor of everthing certain groups may want, I think he tells it like it is, and it seems you can believe what the man says. We can only hope that he moves up in the WDFW ranks. 

[Kain]

KAIN, KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK....

On another note, I have felt positive with every contact I have had with Martorello, he does not seem at all like a *censored*ter, Even though I am sure he is not in favor of everthing certain groups may want, I think he tells it like it is, and it seems you can believe what the man says. We can only hope that he moves up in the WDFW ranks. 

Martorello said he will send me the unrounded numbers after I emailed him my concerns.  I dont think this can be explained as a rounding error.  I am hopeful that if we can bring legitimate concerns that they will continue to correct and increase seasons based on real math and science instead of making management decision based on uneducated public emotions. 

That being said I think the predator managers are trying (being forced?) to balance sound management practices with compromising with anti hunters.  If we can not change this through our legislature and this is going to be reality from now on we need to do our best to fight for everything we can get/keep.  In 2008 we came out on the loosing end of this unscientific policy in the WDFW.  I believe it is the efforts of WFW that was instrumental in getting us back this far.  Hopefully we can get keep pressure on them enough to get us a good long season back and make sure that something like this never happens again.  And once they realize that boot hunters can not manage cougar populations from growing by themselves it will only make the argument for returning hound hunting stronger.

[bearpaw]

the squeaky wheel gets the grease... 

[BOWHUNTER45]

good job kain .. But ya know they are slowly taking away our freedom ... I JUST WISH EVERYONE WOULD JUST SAY WE HAD ENOUGH Of this BS... After coming home today I was driving along the river when I started seeing Discover Signs put up in pull spots along the river WTF ... I am serious man its going over the edge fast .....We all need to make a stand on all issues ....thats why these kids around my town are doing drugs and getting in trouble ...NOTHEN FOR THEM TO DO !! Hunting & Fishing in these parts is a big deal ...keeps kids doing things they enjoy but now they are slowly taking it away little by little ..... I have been getting more extremist lately because I am getting tired of it ....YA KNOW ? little off subject ....forgive me 

[buckfvr]

good job kain .. But ya know they are slowly taking away our freedom ... I JUST WISH EVERYONE WOULD JUST SAY WE HAD ENOUGH Of this BS... After coming home today I was driving along the river when I started seeing Discover Signs put up in pull spots along the river WTF ... I am serious man its going over the edge fast .....We all need to make a stand on all issues ....thats why these kids around my town are doing drugs and getting in trouble ...NOTHEN FOR THEM TO DO !! Hunting & Fishing in these parts is a big deal ...keeps kids doing things they enjoy but now they are slowly taking it away little by little ..... I have been getting more extremist lately because I am getting tired of it ....YA KNOW ? little off subject ....forgive me 

You're not an extremist , more people should be fed up....at some point these rotten s.o.b.'s need a much stronger message.  The way they are treating us should be taken personally, like an attack on our lifestyles and livelyhoods......count me as an extremely pissed off tax paying citizen.

[BOWHUNTER45]

good job kain .. But ya know they are slowly taking away our freedom ... I JUST WISH EVERYONE WOULD JUST SAY WE HAD ENOUGH Of this BS... After coming home today I was driving along the river when I started seeing Discover Signs put up in pull spots along the river WTF ... I am serious man its going over the edge fast .....We all need to make a stand on all issues ....thats why these kids around my town are doing drugs and getting in trouble ...NOTHEN FOR THEM TO DO !! Hunting & Fishing in these parts is a big deal ...keeps kids doing things they enjoy but now they are slowly taking it away little by little ..... I have been getting more extremist lately because I am getting tired of it ....YA KNOW ? little off subject ....forgive me 

You're not an extremist , more people should be fed up....at some point these rotten s.o.b.'s need a much stronger message.  The way they are treating us should be taken personally, like an attack on our lifestyles and livelyhoods......count me as an extremely pissed off tax paying citizen.

 

[nontypical176]

I have a loose friend (friend by acquaintence through a good friend) that works for the WDFW.  He works hard pushing for hunters rights.  Predator hunting is the hardest they have to justify .  Hunters are a huge number but most of us are working class citizens/with families and don't participate as much as we should (me included).  I appreciate any efforts on our behalf...There are groups like PETA that do all they can to stop hunting period.   Most of us have things going on in our own lives and its always great to here people fighting on our behalf....Makes me want to do more.....So today I sent a letter to the WDFW....Might be tooo late for this year (not even sure of that), but its never the wrong time to support whats right.  It might not always be the best time to send letters/phone calls/emails, but if you have time send'em...We should all keep that in mind.

[Kain]

http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2012/03/audio/20120310_07.mp3

Follow along with the presentation slides here.

http://wdfw.wa.gov/commission/meetings/2012/03/mar1012_07_presentation.pdf

If you listen to the bear section also you will see commissioners and the public comments are very concerned with how our predators are being managed.

We may have a very good chance of getting a longer cougar season.

[BOWHUNTER45]

Kain .....thank you thank you thank you ...that is the most sense I ever heard out of any one from the dept...all they need to realize is that you just do not head out into the cougar woods and actually ever see one... so as far as boot hunting goes it should be a really long season ... after January and they have not met there quotas then thats where the pilot program should kick in ....but all in all at least we have someone fighting for us ....thanks for posting that....It was a long sit down in front of my computer but well worth it !!!!

[BOWHUNTER45]

Thanks to AL too... that was well done AL ... this is what it is going to take and I thank you Kain & AL....I LOVED THAT COUGAR JOKE AL .... THIS MADE MY WHOLE DAY !!!!