Proposed cougar season-Meeting Summary.

[Special T]

So i just got done watching this.  from the WDFW own words and studies only 6 PMU's come close to its harvest goals of 12-18% without the use of dogs. What does that tell us? we could kill a hell of a lot more cougars in most GMU's and not affect  the numbers. Even the WDFW rep on this interview has stated that the lack of more liberal seasons are a POLITICAL restriction. I would argue that with out the use of dogs we are WASTING a valuable resource, because most GMUs are not able to meet the harvest goals... Not to mention that an abundance of cougar reduces opportunity for game, deer and elk, that is much more sought after by boot hunters than cougars. I head a lot of IDK from this rep. So why would we reduce opportunity when the likely hood of increased harvest does not increase dramatically? I would imagine that if you look at harvest info most cats are likely shot during existing seasons, OR when there is snow on the ground.  The WDFW must not look too closely at its own stats if they cannot figure out that deer and elk hunting is more popular than cougar hunting, especially when its limited to boot hunting only.  It would seem from WDFW research that if there was an over harvest in one unit for some reason, there is so much competition for space that a neighboring unit would likely provide a replacement.

This kid of reminds me of shooting coyotes on my brother in laws farm. We shoot them year round, male, female, pups and all... NEVER is their a shortage. dogs from the dry land or neighboring areas fill the void.

Kain thanks for the video posts and securing the ability to record. it was hard to read the spread sheet online tho.

What was it like 6 PMU's that they thought MAY come close to harvest goals? Sounds to me that the WDFW own stats show we need to do more to kill cats, or they won't be harvested by hunters, just killed by other means. 

[Machias]

I agree with everything you said, just one thing, you cannot compare yotes to cats.  Yotes have been shown over and over in studies that if you harvest large numbers or there is a disease that knocks their numbers down they have bigger and more litters, not so with lions.

[buckfvr]

Low hunter success rates do little to encourage most hunters to pursue cats......Truth is since wdfw does nothing to encourage predator hunting, as hunters, we need to identify the problem animals, and make an effort.  Since it will be some time before we can hunt wolves ( if ever ),  we need to do what we can about the rest of the deer and elk eating machines......and get serious about it.   

[Special T]

Machias you are right. let me clarify.  there are only 6 PMU's or so that COULD reach the WDFW harvest limit/goal... Lets just say that an over harvest does occure in one of those areas.  The surrounding areas get little preasure and come no where near havest goals. So what happens? younger toms and femals find thier way into this now  "open" territory...   I guess the comparision i was trying tomake betwen Yotes and Cats was thier ability to seek out unclaimed land... 

Certian areas meet harvest goals because of landscape, deer elk hunting preasure ect. 

if they use this study work to bring back hound hunting so that we can be more selective about harvest, then i think its great. If they are concerned about harvest by only boot hunting, it is a waste of time... Good research, and cool that we are the first in the west to have such a detailed study with differnt kinds of pressure to compare it to...   

[Kain]

All the studies that the WDFW performed showed that there was NO change in population total numbers in heavily hunted population.  Only the age structure changed to mean more young cats survived. 

He mentions in the video that the vast majority of harvested cats are taken during deer and elk seasons.  The amount of cats taken outside that time is very low.  Boot hunters will have zero impact on population numbers and social structure even with unlimited opportunity.  Those six or seven units that average over the limit is only by one or two cats in most cases.  That is why I sent the letter I did.  The WDFW is limiting our opportunity because of image and political reasons.  Like he said in the video.  He mentioned that they dont want to hunt cats in the spring because there are more kittens born then but they do not have the same policy when it comes to black bear where they are actually increasing spring opportunity.  This lack of consistency really hurts the WDFW's credibility.  Many think there is no longer any cred anyways. Especially when it comes to predators.

[Special T]

I would agree that the study says ther should be MORE opportunity. I thought it was ironic that they kind of adressed the lack of trust with the WDFW.  Ironic because it sounds like the study was good, and even the presenter said several times that certian decisions were political. 

[Machias]

Machias you are right. let me clarify.  there are only 6 PMU's or so that COULD reach the WDFW harvest limit/goal... Lets just say that an over harvest does occure in one of those areas.  The surrounding areas get little preasure and come no where near havest goals. So what happens? younger toms and femals find thier way into this now  "open" territory...   I guess the comparision i was trying tomake betwen Yotes and Cats was thier ability to seek out unclaimed land...   

Totally agree!!

[Kain]

I would agree that the study says ther should be MORE opportunity. I thought it was ironic that they kind of adressed the lack of trust with the WDFW.  Ironic because it sounds like the study was good, and even the presenter said several times that certian decisions were political. 

I have met and talked with Dr Martorello a few times now.  He is a good guy and I think he tells it like it is.  He does not hide the fact that some decisions are based on "policy" and not maximizing hunter opportunity.  He knows hunters dont trust these numbers and does his best to explain how they come up with them.  The population estimates of 1900-2100 cats he explains is only for cats over two years old and is basically only half the cats out there.  The problem is that the WDFW is trying to make some kind of compromise for all the anti hunters and actual management is suffering because of it. 

[BOWHUNTER45]

Kain.. I like the way you wrote the letter    Nice work !

[Kain]

Kain.. I like the way you wrote the letter    Nice work !

Thanks.  I probably could have been more diplomatic but that does not seem to get any results and I dont think I said anything that isnt true.  Sometimes saying what you really feel works and sometimes it makes you look like an ass.    

[Special T]

I think its good to be polite but blunt. Don't let the WDFW Confuse politeness with stupidity.  I've hears some real BS jobs and they were a lot more convincing than what i have heard on this subject... Good to hear the the Dr. M is a straight shooter. too bad there aren't more of them.

[nontypical176]

I always wished the cougar season was open during spring turkey.  Have a buddy thats called in cougars on 2 occasions.....well he called in one and saw another one stalking him before he even got set up the second time.  Both were close enough to put down with the turkey loads he had in the shotgun, said he was a little shaken on both occasions.  Be a shame to shoot one in self defense and not be in a legal season.  Lots of people we talk to in the area we hunt turkeys have seen cats while hunting birds....opportunity lost I suppose.  Good job on your efforts Kain.  It would be fun to be able to take a cougar again while we are out hunting coons and bobcats.

[Kain]

Something is not adding up.

OK so I added all of the harvest guideline numbers from http://wdfw.wa.gov/about/regulations/2012/wsr_12-04-098.pdf together and got 205-277.  Supposedly this is 12%-16% of all the huntable cats in WA.  But if I calculate 12-16% of the estimated cougar population of 1900-2100 cats I get:

   1900        -      2100
12%  16%       12% 16%
(228-304)   -   (252-336). 

Far higher than the guideline numbers and according to Dr Martorello this does not even include subadults.  Is my math way off here? 

[Special T]

Is your number larger due to no factoring in road kills and such? or was that why we needed to stay in the 12-18% range.
 Since Dr. M seems like a straight shooter i woudl ask him... you math is right to me...

[Kain]

Is your number larger due to no factoring in road kills and such? or was that why we needed to stay in the 12-18% range.
 Since Dr. M seems like a straight shooter i woudl ask him... you math is right to me...

Yes 12-16% is just the number of cats we can hunt.  It does not include all mortality like cougar damage/safety removals and road kill.  If we go back to pre 2008 regulation the average number of cats that were taken was around 200/year.  This include all harvest methods like the pilot program and damage removals.  There is just no way boot hunters can have any effect on reducing or maintaining cougar populations even with unlimited opportunity.

Year   Female   Total cats            Source
2010     78          165            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2010/reports/cougar.php
2009     72          142            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2009/reports/cougar.php
2008    106          188            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2008/reports/cougar.php
2007    100          201            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2007/cougar.php
2006     96          200            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2006/cougar.php
2005     78          202            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2005/cougar.php
2004    102          208            http://wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/harvest/2004/cougar.pdf