Hunting with a bow during muzzleloader season

[dreamingbig]

Okay. You had made it sound like you didn't think there were any at all.  Some is more than none. 

[grundy53]

I can see where some people would be upset. All this does is benefit bow hunters without adding anything to benefit muzzleloaders. It simply takes opportunity from the muzzleloaders and gives it to bow hunters. While bows may still be more primitive, with the advances in modern archery gear they are not far behind muzzeloaders. This literally gives bow hunters the muzzleloaders opportunity. While it might not be a big deal to most, if even one bow hunter buys a muzzy tag because of this then the state just proved to everyone that bow hunters have more pull then muzzleloaders. Whats next? I think this is going to fracture and divide more hunters for no reason.... just my  (As a side note I'm an opportunist who wants to draw a multi season tag every year. So I don't have a pony in this race and am purely looking at this from the outside.)

[dreamingbig]

Grundy, I am not disagreeing with most of what you say.  The one thing that I have a problem with is calling a modern compound equal to a muzzleloader.  Others have stated this previously in the post and it is simply not true.  To those that think it is I ask these questions?

1.  How fast is an arrow flying past 50 yards vs a muzzleloader load?

2.  Take 10 average bowhunters and 10 average muzzleloaders (average by shooting ability) and have them shoot 10 shots each at 100 yards at a 6" pie plate.  Which group would have the better score?

3.  Can you walk around with your bow at full draw all the time?  Once you load your muzzleloader you are ready to shoot minus the controlled breathing and safety off.

Those are three BIG differences between a muzzleloader and a modern compound bow.  I would also argue that you have to practice 10x with a bow to be proficient past 50 yards than you do with a muzzleloader.

 

[et1702]

Grundy, I am not disagreeing with most of what you say.  The one thing that I have a problem with is calling a modern compound equal to a muzzleloader.  Others have stated this previously in the post and it is simply not true.  To those that think it is I ask these questions?

1.  How fast is an arrow flying past 50 yards vs a muzzleloader load?

2.  Take 10 average bowhunters and 10 average muzzleloaders (average by shooting ability) and have them shoot 10 shots each at 100 yards at a 6" pie plate.  Which group would have the better score?

3.  Can you walk around with your bow at full draw all the time?  Once you load your muzzleloader you are ready to shoot minus the controlled breathing and safety off.

Those are three BIG differences between a muzzleloader and a modern compound bow.  I would also argue that you have to practice 10x with a bow to be proficient past 50 yards than you do with a muzzleloader.

 

   Modern Archery equipment is NOT equivilent to Modern Muzzleloaders!  I practice w/my bow to 60yrds, but have never shot at an animal in the woods past 40yrds.  I practice w/my muzzleloader out to 200yrds, but have never shot an animal much past 100yrds.  It's a lot different in the woods than it is at the range for either group. 

ET

[pianoman9701]

Grundy, I am not disagreeing with most of what you say.  The one thing that I have a problem with is calling a modern compound equal to a muzzleloader.  Others have stated this previously in the post and it is simply not true.  To those that think it is I ask these questions?

1.  How fast is an arrow flying past 50 yards vs a muzzleloader load?

2.  Take 10 average bowhunters and 10 average muzzleloaders (average by shooting ability) and have them shoot 10 shots each at 100 yards at a 6" pie plate.  Which group would have the better score?

3.  Can you walk around with your bow at full draw all the time?  Once you load your muzzleloader you are ready to shoot minus the controlled breathing and safety off.

Those are three BIG differences between a muzzleloader and a modern compound bow.  I would also argue that you have to practice 10x with a bow to be proficient past 50 yards than you do with a muzzleloader.

 

I didn't say that a compound is equal to a ML. I said that certain characteristics of modern compound bows are what made them restrict them from ML season.

But this whole conversation is a prime example of the actions of the DFW in the 80s that pit hunter against hunter. Once the seasons and weapons were separated, we became adversaries in our personal quests to have what's best for us. This is ridiculous.

The multi-season pass, as has been said before, ensures that people of means get to hunt whenever they want and that people of little means have to choose. The best thing we could do would be to stand together to have all seasons opened to all of us and eliminate the multi-season pass. If this means heavier restrictions in one unit or another, or different closures for different seasons, so be it. The major difference here is that the DFW has created a chink in the hunter's armor by turning us into individual groups instead of us being united as one. Our biggest obstacle in creating positive change for hunters in WA is being pitted against each other and being able to look past our own wished to the best interest of hunting as a whole. I think we should find a way out of these separate designations.

[bobcat]

I think if we didn't define people as "bow hunters" or "muzzleloader hunters" this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Aren't we all just "hunters?" If a person who normally hunts with a bow, one year decides the muzzleloader season is more to his liking for whatever reason, he could buy a muzzleloader and a muzzleloader tag, and suddenly he is now a "muzzleloader hunter." The only difference now is he won't have to purchase a muzzleloader.

Sorry but I just don't see the downside to this, and if I had to label myself I'd have to say I'm more of a muzzleloader hunter than an archery hunter. There are benefits to this in the flexibility it provides to ALL hunters. Say you have a friend, or relative, that you might want to hunt with one year, but the problem is you always hunt muzzleloder and he hunts archery. He doesn't want to buy a muzzleloader and you don't want to buy a bow, but you'd like to hunt together. Well now you can, you both buy muzzleloader tags and you hunt with your muzzleloader and he hunts with a bow.

I've posted this before, but I got permission to hunt some private property of which the landowner will only allow bow hunting. The unit it's in has both an early and a late muzzleloader season, which is what I wanted to hunt. There is an early archery season, but not late. So last year I bought a modern firearm tag and planned to hunt the property with a bow during modern firearm season. If bows would have been allowed during muzzleloader season last year, I could have done that instead, and had a lot more time to hunt that property.

So that's just a couple of examples of how this benefits hunters. I'm not sure how it has any negative effect on muzzleloader seasons, because if a person chooses to hunt with a bow instead of a muzzleloader, the distance he can take a shot is about half of what it would be with a muzzleloader (say 50 yards compared to 100). I hate to see the WDFW take criticism for something they are changing that benefits us, and doesn't cost any more money! Maybe the people complaining about this would be happier if they changed the names of the tags, so that instead of having archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm tags, we could have A tags, B tags, and C tags. (yes, kind of like Idaho)

[Curly]

My main complaint with the proposal is that it is obvious that it is only about money.  If it was about providing more opportunity, then they could have changed it 10 - 15 years ago.  They are only changing it now because of the multi-season guy that wants to hunt with his bow during all 3 weapon seasons. 

My other complaint is that muzzleloader units are already overcrowded; this could add slightly more hunters.  The other thing is that ML season should really be about hunting with a ML. 

But like I said before, it isn't an issue I'm really passionate about so I'm not going to complain to WDFW.

[grundy53]

I think if we didn't define people as "bow hunters" or "muzzleloader hunters" this wouldn't be so much of an issue. Aren't we all just "hunters?" If a person who normally hunts with a bow, one year decides the muzzleloader season is more to his liking for whatever reason, he could buy a muzzleloader and a muzzleloader tag, and suddenly he is now a "muzzleloader hunter." The only difference now is he won't have to purchase a muzzleloader.

Sorry but I just don't see the downside to this, and if I had to label myself I'd have to say I'm more of a muzzleloader hunter than an archery hunter. There are benefits to this in the flexibility it provides to ALL hunters. Say you have a friend, or relative, that you might want to hunt with one year, but the problem is you always hunt muzzleloder and he hunts archery. He doesn't want to buy a muzzleloader and you don't want to buy a bow, but you'd like to hunt together. Well now you can, you both buy muzzleloader tags and you hunt with your muzzleloader and he hunts with a bow.

I've posted this before, but I got permission to hunt some private property of which the landowner will only allow bow hunting. The unit it's in has both an early and a late muzzleloader season, which is what I wanted to hunt. There is an early archery season, but not late. So last year I bought a modern firearm tag and planned to hunt the property with a bow during modern firearm season. If bows would have been allowed during muzzleloader season last year, I could have done that instead, and had a lot more time to hunt that property.

So that's just a couple of examples of how this benefits hunters. I'm not sure how it has any negative effect on muzzleloader seasons, because if a person chooses to hunt with a bow instead of a muzzleloader, the distance he can take a shot is about half of what it would be with a muzzleloader (say 50 yards compared to 100). I hate to see the WDFW take criticism for something they are changing that benefits us, and doesn't cost any more money! Maybe the people complaining about this would be happier if they changed the names of the tags, so that instead of having archery, muzzleloader, and modern firearm tags, we could have A tags, B tags, and C tags. (yes, kind of like Idaho)

The downside (as I see it) would be more people hunting during that season. If some one buys the muzzy tag for the sole reason of using a bow and would have bought a bow season tag if this change wasn't instituted then they are adding pressure and crowding to that season. This bennefits bow hunters 2 ways. It gives them another season to choose from AND it relieves some of the pressure from their traditional season. The ONLY positives for muzzleloader hunters this are  the two exaples you used (which numbers of these situations I bet are negligable). 

[pianoman9701]

My main complaint with the proposal is that it is obvious that it is only about money.  If it was about providing more opportunity, then they could have changed it 10 - 15 years ago.  They are only changing it now because of the multi-season guy that wants to hunt with his bow during all 3 weapon seasons. 

My other complaint is that muzzleloader units are already overcrowded; this could add slightly more hunters.  The other thing is that ML season should really be about hunting with a ML. 

But like I said before, it isn't an issue I'm really passionate about so I'm not going to complain to WDFW.

So then you would be fine with not being able to use a ML during modern, only during ML?

You may not be passionate about it, but I think it sucks that MLs are pissed at BHs and Modern are pissed at both. I think we should all have equal opportunity during all seasons. Most people only get a week or so off to hunt every year anyway. It's not going to create some huge vacuum into which our ungulates will fall. I think it might even help the overcrowding experienced during muzzle season because some would choose to hunt at other times.

[grundy53]

Also Bobcat I too wish we didn't have to define people as "Muzzleloaders" or "bow hunter". Myself of all people especially since I enjoy all forms of hunting. I love rifles, bows, and muzzleloaders. But in the terms of this argument we do have to separate them. However, I don't think we are separating them into terms of "bow hunter" or "muzzloader" I see it as "Bow season" and "muzzleloader season"....

[bobcat]

The downside (as I see it) would be more people hunting during that season. If some one buys the muzzy tag for the sole reason of using a bow and would have bought a bow season tag if this change wasn't instituted then they are adding pressure and crowding to that season.

This would also apply to the above quote:   

(which numbers of these situations I bet are negligable). 

[Curly]

Part of the challenge of ML hunting in W WA is getting your ML to fire.  If I am camping out for a week in the pouring down rain for deer, I think maybe I'd prefer to use a bow so that I wouldn't have to worry about the ML not going off.  The multi-season guys should have to experience the pluses and minuses of blackpowder hunting IMO.

[grundy53]

Part of the challenge of ML hunting in W WA is getting your ML to fire.  If I am camping out for a week in the pouring down rain for deer, I think maybe I'd prefer to use a bow so that I wouldn't have to worry about the ML not going off.  The multi-season guys should have to experience the pluses and minuses of blackpowder hunting IMO.

I agree

[bobcat]

If I am camping out for a week in the pouring down rain for deer, I think maybe I'd prefer to use a bow so that I wouldn't have to worry about the ML not going off.

And now you can!   

See, everyone benefits from this.

[Curly]

My main complaint with the proposal is that it is obvious that it is only about money.  If it was about providing more opportunity, then they could have changed it 10 - 15 years ago.  They are only changing it now because of the multi-season guy that wants to hunt with his bow during all 3 weapon seasons. 

My other complaint is that muzzleloader units are already overcrowded; this could add slightly more hunters.  The other thing is that ML season should really be about hunting with a ML. 

But like I said before, it isn't an issue I'm really passionate about so I'm not going to complain to WDFW.

So then you would be fine with not being able to use a ML during modern, only during ML?

You may not be passionate about it, but I think it sucks that MLs are pissed at BHs and Modern are pissed at both. I think we should all have equal opportunity during all seasons. Most people only get a week or so off to hunt every year anyway. It's not going to create some huge vacuum into which our ungulates will fall. I think it might even help the overcrowding experienced during muzzle season because some would choose to hunt at other times.

No, I wouldn't be fine with not being able to use ML during modern.  During modern season, archery equipment is allowed so ML equipment should be allowed too.  Plus almost every GMU is open during modern so, overcrowding isn't really too much of an issue if you add a few more hunters.