Have you cake OR get to eat it?

[Snapshot]

An elderly gentleman testifed in front of the Commission on February 3, 2012 stating that he'd like to be able to have a scope on his crossbow. Following is the question he was asked by the co-chair of the commission:

"You’re right, they would make the devices far more efficient and effective, and probably would reduce some damage or wounding animals. But in the resource you would also increase the take of the resource because of these efficiencies. It would increase. Would you prefer to have a scope and not hunt during the late season and during the rut?"

-Gary Douvia, Kettle Falls

[NWWABOWHNTR]

only 11 votes?

[pianoman9701]

I don't hunt archery because it's during the rut. I hunt archery for what it is - the intimacy, hearing the animal breathe, the feeling of taking big game with a bow, the skill and training required. Besides, if the rut were the deciding factor, I'd have an ML.

[dreamingbig]

Oh my gosh, HECK NO!  Crossbows don't belong in an archery discussion anyway but that is another discussion.  Mr. Douvia is an ill informed goof on this subject.

[Special T]

I bow hunt for more time in the feild. With a busy life it gets harder to take time off just to hunt. weekends seem to be the only real time to get out. Not only did i say no but HELLLLL NO! I'm contemplating just bear, cougar and predator hunting this year.

[bobcat]

Besides, if the rut were the deciding factor, I'd have an ML.

Muzzleloader hunters don't get to hunt the rut any more than archery hunters do.

[pianoman9701]

Besides, if the rut were the deciding factor, I'd have an ML.

Muzzleloader hunters don't get to hunt the rut any more than archery hunters do.

Not so true this year, I don't think.

[Curly]

Oh my gosh, HECK NO!  Crossbows don't belong in an archery discussion anyway but that is another discussion.  Mr. Douvia is an ill informed goof on this subject.

I got the impression from his quote that he would not be in favor of allowing scopes on crossbows......

(and I think that if he thinks scopes should not be used, then he is well enough informed).

[NWBREW]

No.  I believe the most effective hunting weapon is the hunter behind the weapon.

[dreamingbig]

I got the impression from his quote that he would not be in favor of allowing scopes on crossbows......

Yes and no.  He implied that crossbows are available for all archers during archery season which they are not.  Don't lump crossbows into the general archery user group and don't volunteer to decrease archery opportunity for all by offering scopes for crossbows for disabled hunters.  That was my beef.

[backyard bucks]

Oh my gosh, HECK NO!  Crossbows don't belong in an archery discussion anyway but that is another discussion. 

i know you said another descussion but here i go.. 

have you shot a crossbow? or ever spent alot of time with one? the only advantage i see to a crossbow is the fact it is at a cocked postion, so no need to draw back when a animal is coming at you.. which i agree is a huge thing in archery.. but everything else is the same. especially in this state where if permitted to use one you can, but need to use peep/pins. the range is the same with a crossbow as is the modern compound bow from what i have seen so far. let's just seperate groups even more in this state?!?!?!  that is the last thing our sportsman need to do.

[Curly]

I got the impression from his quote that he would not be in favor of allowing scopes on crossbows......

Yes and no.  He implied that crossbows are available for all archers during archery season which they are not.  Don't lump crossbows into the general archery user group and don't volunteer to decrease archery opportunity for all by offering scopes for crossbows for disabled hunters.  That was my beef.

Got ya.  Good points.

[JimmyHoffa]

Oh my gosh, HECK NO!  Crossbows don't belong in an archery discussion anyway but that is another discussion. 

i know you said another descussion but here i go.. 

have you shot a crossbow? or ever spent alot of time with one? the only advantage i see to a crossbow is the fact it is at a cocked postion, so no need to draw back when a animal is coming at you.. which i agree is a huge thing in archery.. but everything else is the same. especially in this state where if permitted to use one you can, but need to use peep/pins. the range is the same with a crossbow as is the modern compound bow from what i have seen so far. let's just seperate groups even more in this state?!?!?!  that is the last thing our sportsman need to do.

I would say that a modern compound is actually more of an advantage in almost all areas except the 'locked at draw part'.  Modern compunds shoot roughly twice as far with half the draw weight, reload faster, are quiet, lightweight....  The only thing I've come up with over the years of listening to the crossbow haters for most is fear of losing season/competition in the woods/competition for recognition for 'book scores'. Basically what the commissioner is implying about if scopes are allowed, then days reduced/additional season eliminated.

[Special T]

Range is not the same with a modern bow. I hunted witha guy from AR that killed deer out to 150yards with his. I think a cross bow is more comperable to a muzzy than a bow. Its main advantage is the fact that it is quiet... There are lots of guys out in the San Juans that use them so that they don't alert thier Bunny huggin neighbors.   

[The100Road]

Besides, if the rut were the deciding factor, I'd have an ML.

Muzzleloader hunters don't get to hunt the rut any more than archery hunters do.

 

[Curly]

Besides, if the rut were the deciding factor, I'd have an ML.

Muzzleloader hunters don't get to hunt the rut any more than archery hunters do.

 

   (I'll agree with that statement as well).

[pianoman9701]

Oh my gosh, HECK NO!  Crossbows don't belong in an archery discussion anyway but that is another discussion. 

i know you said another descussion but here i go.. 

have you shot a crossbow? or ever spent alot of time with one? the only advantage i see to a crossbow is the fact it is at a cocked postion, so no need to draw back when a animal is coming at you.. which i agree is a huge thing in archery.. but everything else is the same. especially in this state where if permitted to use one you can, but need to use peep/pins. the range is the same with a crossbow as is the modern compound bow from what i have seen so far. let's just seperate groups even more in this state?!?!?!  that is the last thing our sportsman need to do.

Sorry and all due respects, but everything else is not the same, and yes, I've shot one plenty. Bolts are shorter than arrows and resist deflection much better. The archer's paradox is far greater on a bow than a crossbow. Strength and practice is much more necessary with a bow than a crossbow. Aiming is much easier with a crossbow. There's hardly a comparison between a crossbow and a bow. A crossbow is closer to a gun than it is a bow.

This isn't about separating groups. It's about how far away from traditional archery we'll be allowed to get before we stop. We've about reached that point. If you're an archer who believes crossbows should be allowed during archery, why not just hunt modern or ML?

Oh my gosh, HECK NO!  Crossbows don't belong in an archery discussion anyway but that is another discussion. 

i know you said another descussion but here i go.. 

have you shot a crossbow? or ever spent alot of time with one? the only advantage i see to a crossbow is the fact it is at a cocked postion, so no need to draw back when a animal is coming at you.. which i agree is a huge thing in archery.. but everything else is the same. especially in this state where if permitted to use one you can, but need to use peep/pins. the range is the same with a crossbow as is the modern compound bow from what i have seen so far. let's just seperate groups even more in this state?!?!?!  that is the last thing our sportsman need to do.

I thought this discussion was about the rut.  Crossbows have little to do with archery and the differences are vast.

[NWWABOWHNTR]

Main point here is the Commission will taek away seasons with an increase in technology,  that goes for all user groups.

[LeeMajors]

I got the impression from his quote that he would not be in favor of allowing scopes on crossbows......

Yes and no.  He implied that crossbows are available for all archers during archery season which they are not.  Don't lump crossbows into the general archery user group and don't volunteer to decrease archery opportunity for all by offering scopes for crossbows for disabled hunters.  That was my beef.

You sure that's what he was implying?  Crossbows are available for disabled archers, and perhaps the elder gentleman is disabled?

[Fullabull]

OK,,,Bobcat, you always bring up the ML not hunting the rut. Yes, they do hunt the rut more then archery! Archery does not even hunt during prime rut, even more so over the last three year and the next three coming up!
 ML hunters start their hunt in early Oct. which is most definitely during prime rutting time. Cow are still coming into heat and all cows not bread during their first cycle come into a second cycle in October. The heat of the rut starts in late September (which archery never gets to hunt unless you hunt in another state) and runs into mid Oct.

[bobcat]

OK,,,Bobcat, you always bring up the ML not hunting the rut. Yes, they do hunt the rut more then archery! Archery does not even hunt during prime rut, even more so over the last three year and the next three coming up!
 ML hunters start their hunt in early Oct. which is most definitely during prime rutting time. Cow are still coming into heat and all cows not bread during their first cycle come into a second cycle in October. The heat of the rut starts in late September (which archery never gets to hunt unless you hunt in another state) and runs into mid Oct.

Well, this is a bit off topic, but all I know is I've heard bugling while I've been out scouting during the September archery season. Once muzzleloader season comes around, I hear nothing, in the same areas.

I'm sure you must know the WDFW has the seasons set just for that reason- archery is before the peak of the rut, and muzzleloader is after.

Now last year you might have had a better argument, with the muzzleloader season beginning October 1st. But this year it's October 6th, and it doesn't often fall as early as the 1st.

[NWWABOWHNTR]

and the coveted Rifle rut tag is in between.... hmmmm make money? 

[dreamingbig]

I got the impression from his quote that he would not be in favor of allowing scopes on crossbows......

Yes and no.  He implied that crossbows are available for all archers during archery season which they are not.  Don't lump crossbows into the general archery user group and don't volunteer to decrease archery opportunity for all by offering scopes for crossbows for disabled hunters.  That was my beef.

You sure that's what he was implying?  Crossbows are available for disabled archers, and perhaps the elder gentleman is disabled?

I know crossbows are available for disabled archers and that is the only user group that can use them during archery season.  I agree with NWBOWHUNTER in that they will take away our opportunity if the effectiveness of our weapons increases.

[dreamingbig]

and the coveted Rifle rut tag is in between.... hmmmm make money?

Yeah that!  The time of year that they said was off limits for everyone until is was no longer.    Money, money, mmoonnnnneeeeeyyyy.

[bobcat]

and the coveted Rifle rut tag is in between.... hmmmm make money?

Yeah that!  The time of year that they said was off limits for everyone until is was no longer.    Money, money, mmoonnnnneeeeeyyyy.

Yeah but that's only a few units and there's only 1 permit in each unit. Pretty small impact especiallly when you figure the indians are hunting all those units too at that time.

[dreamingbig]

Bobcat, that is not the point.  They said it was off limits for every user group but now it is not.  Why not an archery and muzzleloader tag at the same time?  Only 1 per user group?   

[NWWABOWHNTR]

Bobcat, that is not the point.  They said it was off limits for every user group but now it is not.  Why not an archery and muzzleloader tag at the same time?  Only 1 per user group?   

I brought that up to the WDFW at a recent meeting, just make it a "RUT TAG", and allow all 3 user groups to apply.... they didn't like that idea.

[bobcat]

Bobcat, that is not the point.  They said it was off limits for every user group but now it is not.  Why not an archery and muzzleloader tag at the same time?  Only 1 per user group?   

Don't ask me, I don't make the rules.   

All I can say is for those who feel one weapon type has a better season, you are free to buy a tag for whichever one you prefer. If you now hunt archery and you don't like the season, and feel the muzzleloader is a lot better, then buy a muzzleloader tag. Pretty simple. Or if you feel cheated because the modern firearm hunters get 1 permit that is during the elk rut, then buy a modern firearm tag so you can apply for it.

[Fullabull]

Just because you hear bugles does not mean the elk are in the rut. They bugle all year round but it picks up in August when they start figuring out who is in their territories for the coming breeding season. When we talk prime rut, that is when they will come into calling and the cows are ready to breed (late Sept. and the first three weeks of Oct).

[ribka]

ML hunters have the elk rut because archery has been moved back

Besides, if the rut were the deciding factor, I'd have an ML.

Muzzleloader hunters don't get to hunt the rut any more than archery hunters do.

[ribka]

X2

I got the impression from his quote that he would not be in favor of allowing scopes on crossbows......

Yes and no.  He implied that crossbows are available for all archers during archery season which they are not.  Don't lump crossbows into the general archery user group and don't volunteer to decrease archery opportunity for all by offering scopes for crossbows for disabled hunters.  That was my beef.

You sure that's what he was implying?  Crossbows are available for disabled archers, and perhaps the elder gentleman is disabled?

I know crossbows are available for disabled archers and that is the only user group that can use them during archery season.  I agree with NWBOWHUNTER in that they will take away our opportunity if the effectiveness of our weapons increases.

[bobcat]

Just because you hear bugles does not mean the elk are in the rut. They bugle all year round but it picks up in August when they start figuring out who is in their territories for the coming breeding season. When we talk prime rut, that is when they will come into calling and the cows are ready to breed (late Sept. and the first three weeks of Oct).

I've always heard that the biggest bulls are easier to call in before they get with a harem of cows. Is that not the case?

Either way, as I said, if the muzzleloader season is so much better, then I assume there will be a whole lot of archery hunters switching over to muzzleloader this year.

I do know I've never been able to call a bull in during muzzleloader season. And two years in a row of hunting the Toutle unit, where there is no shortage of elk, we never once heard an elk bugle.

But I sure do hope it's as good as you say because I am buying a muzzleloader tag this year.

[ribka]

Can only speak for the e side but the peak of the rut seems to be the first part of Oct.

I help a neighbor every year with hisnhandicap tag and always hear elk bugle during modern firearms. The spike I shot for him last season the third week of Oct was bugling and chasing  cows.

I only hear a few bugles the last few days of early archery every year and the bulls do not yet seem to be in full rut.

Maybe ask Norse peak as he spends more time in the woods.

Just because you hear bugles does not mean the elk are in the rut. They bugle all year round but it picks up in August when they start figuring out who is in their territories for the coming breeding season. When we talk prime rut, that is when they will come into calling and the cows are ready to breed (late Sept. and the first three weeks of Oct).

I've always heard that the biggest bulls are easier to call in before they get with a harem of cows. Is that not the case?

Either way, as I said, if the muzzleloader season is so much better, then I assume there will be a whole lot of archery hunters switching over to muzzleloader this year.

I do know I've never been able to call a bull in during muzzleloader season. And two years in a row of hunting the Toutle unit, where there is no shortage of elk, we never once heard an elk bugle.

But I sure do hope it's as good as you say because I am buying a muzzleloader tag this year.

[Fullabull]

Bobcat, I tried to win a ML at a banguet in hopes of drawing a multi season tag. I will only hunt archery because of the fun and challange unless I draw a multi season. If I get drawn for multi I just might have to spring for a ML

[bobcat]

Bobcat, I tried to win a ML at a banguet in hopes of drawing a multi season tag. I will only hunt archery because of the fun and challange unless I draw a multi season. If I get drawn for multi I just might have to spring for a ML

Or, if you like the dates of the muzzleloader season better, buy a muzzleloader tag, and hunt with your bow.
(since that will be legal for the first time ever this year)

[NWWABOWHNTR]

Bobcat, I tried to win a ML at a banguet in hopes of drawing a multi season tag. I will only hunt archery because of the fun and challange unless I draw a multi season. If I get drawn for multi I just might have to spring for a ML

Or, if you like the dates of the muzzleloader season better, buy a muzzleloader tag, and hunt with your bow.
(since that will be legal for the first time ever this year)

Yep... think a lot of bowhunters should do that this year... and apply for all those bull tags during muzzy!  Oh ya and the antlerless tags in the Colockum

[bobcat]

Bobcat, I tried to win a ML at a banguet in hopes of drawing a multi season tag. I will only hunt archery because of the fun and challange unless I draw a multi season. If I get drawn for multi I just might have to spring for a ML

Or, if you like the dates of the muzzleloader season better, buy a muzzleloader tag, and hunt with your bow.
(since that will be legal for the first time ever this year)

Yep... think a lot of bowhunters should do that this year... and apply for all those bull tags during muzzy!  Oh ya and the antlerless tags in the Colockum

Wouldn't hurt my feelings any, I'm only applying for a cow tag, and it will be on the wet side.

[Fullabull]

Bobcat, I tried to win a ML at a banguet in hopes of drawing a multi season tag. I will only hunt archery because of the fun and challange unless I draw a multi season. If I get drawn for multi I just might have to spring for a ML

Or, if you like the dates of the muzzleloader season better, buy a muzzleloader tag, and hunt with your bow.
(since that will be legal for the first time ever this year)

Interresting thought... 

[NWWABOWHNTR]

Bobcat, I tried to win a ML at a banguet in hopes of drawing a multi season tag. I will only hunt archery because of the fun and challange unless I draw a multi season. If I get drawn for multi I just might have to spring for a ML

Or, if you like the dates of the muzzleloader season better, buy a muzzleloader tag, and hunt with your bow.
(since that will be legal for the first time ever this year)

Yep... think a lot of bowhunters should do that this year... and apply for all those bull tags during muzzy!  Oh ya and the antlerless tags in the Colockum

Wouldn't hurt my feelings any, I'm only applying for a cow tag, and it will be on the wet side.

Me either, better chance for me to draw my tag this year... :-)

[dreamingbig]

Bobcat, I tried to win a ML at a banguet in hopes of drawing a multi season tag. I will only hunt archery because of the fun and challange unless I draw a multi season. If I get drawn for multi I just might have to spring for a ML

Or, if you like the dates of the muzzleloader season better, buy a muzzleloader tag, and hunt with your bow.
(since that will be legal for the first time ever this year)

I can tell you I have thought about that.  It is very sad that we now have archery seasons that are so bad that muzzleloader season with a bow looks appealing.  Take bumping for example, you woud give up 6 days afield but you would have a chance to draw a cow tag (no cow tags for archery), have a decent chance at a bull tag, and if you don't draw then you have the same general spike only season and closer to the rut.

[Snapshot]

Either way, as I said, if the muzzleloader season is so much better, then I assume there will be a whole lot of archery hunters switching over to muzzleloader this year.

(Presuming the regulations change to allow 'hunting down' in the muzzleloader season) I believe that a 'to-the-bone' archery hunter might choose to buy the muzzleloader tag but there is no way would he/she change weapons. It would be against their nature to do so.

[dmr400]

Either way, as I said, if the muzzleloader season is so much better, then I assume there will be a whole lot of archery hunters switching over to muzzleloader this year.

(Presuming the regulations change to allow 'hunting down' in the muzzleloader season) I believe that a 'to-the-bone' archery hunter might choose to buy the muzzleloader tag but there is no way would he/she change weapons. It would be against their nature to do so.

Agreed...I love hunting rutting bulls, but at this time I don't see myself ever using anything but a bow to do it.  That is one thing I've found very disappointing about my move to WA this year, even in OR where I came from (not known for trophy elkhunting for sure!) we almost always had what I considered the peak rut for archery general season on the east side.  Down there we usually saw peak rut activity starting anywhere between the 15th and 20th of September.