Whisker biscuit RMEF article Chuck Adams comment

[Johnb317]

Got the latest RMEF magazine yesterday!  There is an article written by Chuck Adams talking about the history and types of arrow rests.  Made mention of Whisker biscuits being only accurate for close shots and beginner/intermediate archers.
I disagree and feel rather insulted!  I shoot blazer fletching and have had no problems with them being worn out (I shoot a lot in the backyard), and shoot consistent groupings that I don't think would improve by more than an inch at 50 yards if I went to a drop-away.    I like the Whisker biscuit as it's simple, full arrow capture, no moving parts to fail.

Chuck obviously has a bias...
What are your thoughts?

[THunt]

Never have used one.  I use a drop away and they are a bit of a pain to get all set up correctly.

[pianoman9701]

Johnb, I would say that if you're shooting that well using a biscuit, you should write to Chuck. I think that a drop away rest has probably the least effect on a shaft leaving the bow, but that doesn't mean no other rest is good, especially if your experience shows the biscuit to work well at long range.

Chuck is an awesome archer with a great history of big game kills. He has opinions that don't match mine, but he's by far a much more successful bowhunter than I.

[Button Nubbs]

My groups tightened up a lot when I went from wb to a fall away. How do you know you'll only get an inch? Have you tried it or is it a guess?

[TommyH]

    I use a drop away, never had a biscuit so i cant say much about them except that even in thier own pics advertising them you can see the vains being bent/pushed. If your comfortable with what you got and it works for ya up to your outer limits then stick with what your confident with. ----

[JPhelps]

In my opinion you need to spin an arrow with a fixed blade broadhead.  That requires helical or offset fletching.  I would be concerned with sending these vanes through a WB.  There is no way to guarantee that the interaction between the whiskers and vanes is identical shot to shot.

How do you know it wont increase your groups?  I would want to back up my claim before I called someone out.  I can't comment to the accuracy of a WB because I have always shot a trophy taker fall away.

[D-Rock425]

I think chuck is right.  If you go to big archery shoots there is a reason the top shooters are not using whisker biscuits. 

[TommyH]

In my opinion you need to spin an arrow with a fixed blade broadhead.  That requires helical or offset fletching.  I would be concerned with sending these vanes through a WB. There is no way to guarantee that the interaction between the whiskers and vanes is identical shot to shot.

How do you know it wont increase your groups?  I would want to back up my claim before I called someone out.  I can't comment to the accuracy of a WB because I have always shot a trophy taker fall away.

  We practice shooting all year trying to get it all right, shot after shot after shot needs to be just the same as when you were practicing.

[pianoman9701]

If Johnb is shooting groups within 1" of bullseye at 50 yds, I'd say he should continue doing what he's doing. I don't believe this is a right or wrong, black and white issue.

[TommyH]

If Johnb is shooting groups within 1" of bullseye at 50 yds, I'd say he should continue doing what he's doing. I don't believe this is a right or wrong, black and white issue.

I dont think he said he was shooting 1 inch groups at 50 yards, if he was i wouldnt change anything!!

[PolarBear]

Chuck is right!  I wouldn't have one on any of my bows and after thousands of shots with my Trophy Taker in weather from 100 degrees down to -11, in rain, snow and everything in between, have never had a failure.  My cousin use to use a wisker biscuit (the same one who was satisfied that his bow was sighted good enough if he could get 3 shots in a paper plate at 30 yards) had his freeze up and botched a shot on a nice bull.

[Mike450r]

WB is fine for a hunting bow and if you like and shoot decent with it don't worry about it.  You wouldn't want one on a competition target bow but for hunting it's just fine.

[JLS]

I used to use one.  I use Ripcord now, and yes I do believe it is more accurate than the WB. 

If it works for you use it.  If you're offended by Chuck dissing on your rest, write him a letter if you feel the need.

Why in the world you feel insulted?

[MIKEXRAY]

I had a whisker on my bow for two years and never achieved the accuracy / consistency I wanted,  my form & shooting habits were the most likely culprit . I went to a drop away and was way out shooting my last two years on the first day. I found the drop away a lot more forgiving. If someone asked my opinion I would agree with Chucks statement,  I would call it a short range hunting setup.  I can't believe how much I messed with my bow with the whisker for those two years, wished I would of known & got the drop away sooner.   Mike 

[Johnb317]

Reading all the above makes me wonder if I should try a drop away...
I've read a lot of Chuck's stuff and felt his description of Whisker Biscuits was fairly dismissive, as if he had to mention them, but would rather have not. 
When I first started bowhunting the rest I used was a little plastic flipper (20 + years ago), and when starting up again the guys who got me back into bow hunting used the WB. 
For myself I would be hard pressed to take a shot  at an animal beyond 50 yards... (they move, and that's my personal choice). 

I apreciatte all your comments, and if I do send a letter to Chuck I will temper it accordingly.

btw - my wife thinks I spend too much time reading this forum.... 

[300rum]

I never put much into what other people say versus my own experience but Chuck is thee man.

However, I use a biscuit and it is plenty accurate.  The main reasons I use a biscuit are more for function rather than for ultimate accuracy.  When it is snowing heavy or you are in an ice storm, I am always worried about the rest freezing up, the Biscuit has always done well in these conditions.  I like to, at times, walk around with a knocked arrow and the biscuit keeps the arrow where it needs to be.  It is less "mechanical" and that's a good thing when you are miles from the truck.  I shoot helical fletched arrows and haven't had the problems some people say they do.  I do put a dab of glue on the leading edge of the vain and use the stiffest veins I can find.  These arrows will have waves in them eventually but it really hasn't affected accuracy too much, that I have noticed.  I suppose if you are in a tree a mechanical is the way to go. 

[ouchfoss]

As others have already said, if it works for you and you are accurate then I wouldnt worry about whats been said about the WB.
Personally though, I will have to agree with Chuck and will never use one again. I had a friend show me one back in '02 or '03 and was sold on the fact that it would hold your arrows no matter what and still shoot "OK". I used it for 5 seasons and although I was still successful at filling some tags, there was still some shots that didnt hit where I was aiming and I just kinda figured it was my own fault by buck fever and whatnot. Seemed to that it was a never ending struggle of being accurate and consistent and after doing away with the WB and going to a fallway my grouping became noticably better. I should also mention that part my accuracy problem was the fact that after so many shots, the fletchings would be all wavey and screwed up which would make each shot that much less consistent and would limit the amount of pratice shots I would take for fear of getting to the point where and arrow would need refletched. I cant imagine that taking as few shots as possible througout the season would make anyone feel confident about hitting woods. Lesson learned.   
 

[ouchfoss]

Also, the fact that the arrow would stay put no matter what, got me into making a BAD habit of walking around the woods with a arrow always nocked. There was one day that I spooked a deer and without even thinking I began chasing it through the woods hoping to get ahead of it and get a shot. There was several times where I actully jumped over a few logs with the arrow still nocked and after losing sight of the deer and stopping for a few seconds, I realized what I just did. I believe that was the last year I used the WB.

[MLBowhunting]

I think chuck still uses aluminum arrows!  Im sure he tested his theory he seems like that type of guy.  He has proven his bowhunting know how and im sure he is right.  He also uses old school vanes from the last pics i have seen.  Old schooler know his stuff

[carpsniperg2]

O.k here is a comment from a guy that has biscuits on 4 bows and drop away rests on 4 bows! That would be me if you are wondering. I have shot thousands of arrows threw both styles of rests.

1: To say the whisker biscuit is not accurate is a true under statement. It is very very accurate and that myth has been put to bed a long time ago. You take 2 pro shooters there will be no given difference in groups at normal hunting ranges.
2: Does the modern fall away have some slight advantages yes. Does it mean they are better no! What is right for one might not be right for another. Is a deer or a elk going to notice those 1-4fps gained with most bows switching from a biscuit to a fall away? Hell no!
3: I have killed tons of critters with a bow using both systems. More then most might shoot in a life time. Does this make me a pro? no does it make me better then anyone? no. Does it mean I HAVE PURE INSIGHT INTO THE SUBJECT? YES!

Bottom line is this. There is a little difference between a drop away and a biscuit. Is one only good for new shooters and intermediate shooters? hell no. Does the factors play much into anything in normal hunting conditions? no!

So once again to each there own

[RadSav]

I do not understand why you would be insulted.  Craig Boddington writes articles suggesting the 270 & 308 Win are shy of optimal for elk.  Many others write that the 7mm Rem. Mag is questionable as an elk cartridge.  Yet each year hundreds of elk are effectively taken with these cartridges.  The writings are not meant to insult ones choice in equipment and no one should feel as though they are.  Both Craig Boddington and Chuck Adams are extremely smart and accomplished hunters.  And, both take their equipment to an extreme level of performance.  You might even say they take it to a level of "overkill".  And why not?  Their careers depend on it.

Chuck has mentioned many times over the years why he still chooses to shoot aluminum arrows.  He does so because it is the one shaft material he can take beyond question in straightness, uniformity of spine and reliability.  He never insults those who use all carbon shafts.  And he has never stated that their use should be avoided.  He has simply found that in his approach to the perfect hunting setup aluminum is a better choice.  Good for Chuck!  It's as simple as that.

From the times I have met Chuck and the conversations we have had over the past 25 or so years I can say one thing for certain - Damn Good is not good enough in his mind.  He settles for nothing less than true perfection in his equipment.  He openly explains that his mind must be at complete ease when he comes to full draw.  His equipment must be beyond a point of absolute so the only worry he has is in aim, release and follow through.  If the Hairy Hole would bring him to that level of comfort he would be using it!

Most of us will never see a world record animal let alone have a chance to shoot more than one.  Most of us will never have that level of pressure put on our hunting success as a direct contributor to our career success and survival.  And, most of us will never go into the woods with the extreme level of preparedness that is Chuck Adams way of life.  Is that a bad thing?  Not really.  Does that insult the average bowhunter?  Certainly not!

The fact is that while the Hairy Hole is extremely popular, extremely effective and extremely simple it is not a first choice of top competitive 3-D and target shooters for a reason.  It is a darn fine product for the average hunter.  And even a darn fine product for some of the worlds best like David Blanton & Archie Nesbit.  But, if you are an anal retentive seamhead who often pushes yourself to the extreme limits of  shot opportunities and success demanding everything perform at the highest level the Hairy Hole is probably not the best choice.

All that being said I am rather shocked about the way Chuck wrote this piece.  I expect he was limited in word space and sacrificed a bit of clarity.  He does not do that often.  Of course we never know what effect editors had on the piece as well.  When I used to write for Western Bowhunter Magazine the direction of some articles were a mystery to me after editing - and they were my writings!

Chuck has always been very responsive to letters written respectively.  But be prepared if you try to challenge his findings.  He is usually as prepared to defend himself as he is to tackle the next world record.  He is a true professional and truly a fine individual.  And, I am sure he never intended to make you feel insulted for using the Biscuit.

[Bob33]

"If it ain't broke...

[Special T]

I have used both drop away and WB. I found that the WB's accuracy got worse over time. I liked it for hunting, and think for shots of 40yrds and less its great. I killed my first deer with a WB. When i bought a new bow i got a drop away. My groups got much better farther out, but i cannot say it was only due to the drop away.

[BOWHUNTER45]

WTH ..Well with all do respect to Chuck I can say he is full of sheet    I have a WB on my sons bow and he shoots well with it ....Chuck is right about all the arrow rests that have traveled threw the archery industries and I think the WB is a good rest even though I prefer a drop away rest on my bow ..I watched my son smoke a couple deer well at the 40 yrd mark and no problems but serious blood trails ..when I think back to my child hood I must say I went threw many rests ... I am not saying the WB is the very best rest out there but I know they work well enough to hunt with and take game out for 40 yrds at least ...I hate having to many movable parts on my bow and all the fantsy sheet means nothen to me ...if you can group arrows in a pie plate at 40yrds then your good to go on the hunting end of it.. if you want to be a target shooter then yes you may want to up grade your equipment ...as for hunting the WB will work fine !!!!!

[jechicdr]

I've shot whisker biscuit, drop away, and currently Quiktune Sizzor.  Shot well with Whisker Biscuit and Sizzor.  Dropaway, I don't think was set up properly, so I probably gave up on it too soon.  The full containment of the whisker biscuit made it easy to tune.  The dropaway, I think was dropping too quickly and so was not being guided enough to make an easy tune.  The Sizzor gave me the best of both.  Can adjust easily to hold arrow as long as I want and fall away before the fletchings arrive.

Suspect this guy works with Trophy Ridge...but still pretty impressive shooting with whisker biscuit.

[BULLBLASTER]

 :chuckle:Radsav said "hairy hole" hahaha...
I never used a WB bit might switch to one now so that I can say hairy hole!

[Fullabull]

I put a WB on my sons bow to start him off and was amazed at how easy and quick it was to tune. He was able to shoot very well with it. I then moved him to a drop away and he shoots even more accurate now, maybe it's because he's stronger now. I always take a WB hunting with me because if something happens to by drop away, I can easy replace it in the field with an easy to set up WB.

Chuck has a reputation of being rood but I think he just knows his stuff and is not willing to compromise what he has learned over so many years of hunting and shooting. Some people just come across that way but are really not trying to be rood.

[alwinearcher]

I've shot whisker biscuit, drop away, and currently Quiktune Sizzor.  Shot well with Whisker Biscuit and Sizzor.  Dropaway, I don't think was set up properly, so I probably gave up on it too soon.  The full containment of the whisker biscuit made it easy to tune.  The dropaway, I think was dropping too quickly and so was not being guided enough to make an easy tune.  The Sizzor gave me the best of both.  Can adjust easily to hold arrow as long as I want and fall away before the fletchings arrive.

Suspect this guy works with Trophy Ridge...but still pretty impressive shooting with whisker biscuit.

Look at that!
Pigman would probably be Winning IBO worlds in the pro class if he had a Ripcord

[trophyhunt]

 

O.k here is a comment from a guy that has biscuits on 4 bows and drop away rests on 4 bows! That would be me if you are wondering. I have shot thousands of arrows threw both styles of rests.

1: To say the whisker biscuit is not accurate is a true under statement. It is very very accurate and that myth has been put to bed a long time ago. You take 2 pro shooters there will be no given difference in groups at normal hunting ranges.
2: Does the modern fall away have some slight advantages yes. Does it mean they are better no! What is right for one might not be right for another. Is a deer or a elk going to notice those 1-4fps gained with most bows switching from a biscuit to a fall away? Hell no!
3: I have killed tons of critters with a bow using both systems. More then most might shoot in a life time. Does this make me a pro? no does it make me better then anyone? no. Does it mean I HAVE PURE INSIGHT INTO THE SUBJECT? YES!

Bottom line is this. There is a little difference between a drop away and a biscuit. Is one only good for new shooters and intermediate shooters? hell no. Does the factors play much into anything in normal hunting conditions? no!

So once again to each there own

:tup:Very well said, I have also used both and killed animals with the bisket. I recently bought a new bow which has a drop away witch holds my arrow as well as the bisket did so I agree with all you said.

[bloodhound]

so ive owned a lot of different rests over the years. for me i found that the "hairy hole" was not the best rest for me. and with the rests we have these days including full capture drop away there is no reason to own one anymore.

pro's- ummm hmmmm they are easy to put on and toon for a back up rest. uhh thats all i got.

con's- try to lay your bow down with an arrow knocked, then spend the next five min trying to smooth all the whiskers back out when they all get mashed.
        - try to walk with the arrow knocked have it hook something as your walking and spend five min fixing the whiskers.
        - they are not forgiving if you twitch or torque on release.
        - they ware out and you have to replace the biscuit
        - your fletchings have to be aligned the same with all your arrows so they all enter the same spot through the biscuit or you   loose accuracy.
        - un knock your arrow once its in the rest, pain since you have to pull it out the front through the rest.
        - because the biscuit wares out they have to be tuned more often, and re tuned when you replace the biscuit.
        -if you like to shoot 4inch vanes be prepared to replace them a lot since the rest eats them.
       
i could go on for days, but the reality is that when it came out it was a great rest, but these days with full contain drop aways, unless your trying to save money or something, there is absolutely no reason to buy one. drop away rests are better in every way. and though some might say the difference isnt that much in accuracy, though i think its a lot, drops are still more accurate and forgiving so why would you settle for something less then the best.

[TheHunt]

I have never used Whisker Biscuits but I believe in Newton's first law of motion which states an object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.   Therefore anything hitting the arrow fletching would effect the arrow flight.  The lighter the arrow more effect of the Whisker Biscuit.  Therefore, I will be using fall away rest with nothing touching the arrow at time of arrow release.

Therefore, I do support ole Chucky as it makes sense to me.   

[BOWHUNTER45]

Me and pig man would get along just fine ...obvious he is not worried about speed ...but accuracy ....if you can do that at 100yrds consistantly then I do not care what rest you shoot ...yeah of course we have better technology and somethings work better than others but when you shoot like that with what you have then they can sheet can the rest .....Yeah pig man I am with ya brother  Its funny back in the day when I had this little spring lookin type rest on my bow and I also shot fingers almost my whole life up until the last 8 yrs and I used to group arrows tight with that old spring rest and back in those days when I shot everyday ...hours and hours because we had nothen better to do I have like 6 or more robin hooded arrows shooting fingers and only 1 or 2 with a release...and one was when a buddy bought a new bow and I picked it up and shot twice when whack 2 stuck together ...yeah it was luck  But seriously if you practice one way and you get good at it then no need for change ...its just like loading bullets ..you want them hot for speed and get a 2 inch group or you let off a little and shoot 1/4 in groups !!!!!