Funny thing about non-toxic shot....

[Shoffy]

Steel shot sucks for upland. Plain and simple. No two ways about it. I cannot speak for using exotic non toxic types, other than they are so expensive, because I've never used them. I'm sure they are great, I just couldn't afford to shoot em!  It's just plain fact: Lead travels farther, hits harder, kills better and cost less. I couldn't imagine using steel on chukar either. Of even quail. My understanding with steel is use a couple sizes bigger than lead. So what, I'm using a #4 for california quail??? How does that work??
We all need to step it up and get this non toxic political agenda out of our state leaders heads. WE DON'T WANT IT

There's my rant and rave on how good lead is 

[bobcat]

Well I would normally use 8's in lead for quail, so if you go two sizes bigger it would be #6 in steel.

(I don't even know if they make steel shot that small?)

[Wenatcheejay]

I don't believe our State Leaders support it. I know Doc Hastings does not support it. Congress does not support it. The EPA does not support it. The Department of Ecology does not support it.

The problem is the ideology that every or any animal needs to be protected from "potential harm" not the management of a population. It's bad science.

[KFhunter]

irritates the *censored* outta me some fellow hunters would be pushing for this crap 
 
 

[Curly]

irritates the *censored* outta me some fellow hunters would be pushing for this crap 

 
If it makes someone feel better to use non-tox for upland, they should just use it and not worry about what everyone else is doing. 

If there were studies showing it was really a problem, I guarantee we would not be allowed to use lead for upland.

[Stilly bay]

constitutional rights...

Do The People have a Constitutional Right to lead ammunition?

Well, again that is not the question. The question is does the WDFW have the power to go against the EPA, Department of Ecology and others and do what makes them feel good? Even if it is later proved to benifit chucker that is irrelevant today. Do The People have a right to revoke that power or even to question it?

Do they have the right to take away freedom of choice from The People because it makes them feel good?

I have never been good at shutting up and being a good little socialist. 

do you even know what socialism means?

Stilly bay,

Have you ever force fed lead shot pellets to chuckar, you know, for research purposes?   

no, but I once clipped all the feathers off a chukars left wing -leaving on those on the right- to see if it was a more effective flyer... it didn't work out so well.

Steel shot sucks for upland. Plain and simple. No two ways about it. I cannot speak for using exotic non toxic types, other than they are so expensive, because I've never used them. I'm sure they are great, I just couldn't afford to shoot em!  It's just plain fact: Lead travels farther, hits harder, kills better and cost less.

plain and simple, incorrect.

irritates the *censored* outta me some fellow hunters would be pushing for this crap 
 
 

the pleasure has been all mine. this is an argument I never intended to even dream of winning. bottom line is steel aint that bad, and all in all its pretty damn good when you do your homework, lead is poison and this will be a losing fight since lead shot was successfully banned for waterfowl years ago, and in times since ultra right wing conservative MT has banned lead, its only a matter of time before Wa folds.

I wish things would stay the same as much as anyone else, but I will be damned if I fear change to the point of ignorance.

[KFhunter]

how about we just cut to the chase and ban all killing of wild animals for any reason?
 
 

[Stilly bay]

how about we just cut to the chase and ban all killing of wild animals for any reason?

that sounds like completely reasonable line of thinking to me. well played.

[Wenatcheejay]

how about we just cut to the chase and ban all killing of wild animals for any reason?

Well, managing for the potential harm of an individual animal as opposed to management of populations sets the stage for it.

Here is a newspaper article that combines the highlights of this thread.
 
http://www.twincities.com/national/ci_20498999/environmentalists-take-aim-at-toxic-lead-ammunition

[KFhunter]

good article, I hadn't read it. Pretty easy to connect the dots.

regulate, regulate, regulate until there is nothing left or you've drove your enemy (hunters) to quit the sport.


Keep capitulating Stilly - see where you are a few years down the road, but you'd rather be snarky.

[Shoffy]

Well I would normally use 8's in lead for quail, so if you go two sizes bigger it would be #6 in steel.

(I don't even know if they make steel shot that small?)

I use a 7-1/2 of quail, but I wasn't sure if they made a #5 in steel. OK.... so I embellished a little 

[Wenatcheejay]

Socialism is something that should be discussed in context of ideology. It was a remark based on the comments about "constitutional comments" and "rights" you made.

I was commenting on how "change" came to be. In this sense I used a word to express:

"Government in a Communist-state is the agent of change rather than any market or desire on the part of consumers. Change by government can be swift or slow, depending on change in ideology or even whim."

Here is a great comparison link:

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Capitalism_vs_Socialism

Here is the cost of non toxics

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/668610/hevi-shot-hevi-metal-pheasant-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-1-1-8-oz-4-hevi-metal-non-toxic-shot-box-of-25

Lead

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/593840/remington-game-load-ammunition-12-gauge-2-3-4-1-oz-6-shot-box-of-25

And with this kind of increase in price to ask for empirical evidence that all populations are harmed is unreasonable? I don't think so.

I also oppose the ban for the next user group on the hit list. Because as it has been stated the upland State land ban is just a feather in the cap.

[JLS]

You can buy steel shot in size 6 at your local Wally World.  I used it for chukars this year and had no issues with it.

[BurleyDog]

I am young and hunt primarily waterfowl and upland and I don't remember the days of 100% lead.

When I waterfowl hunt I usually take a break and walk around for upland birds, because of this I only buy steel shot.

I have no problem with the performance of my steel shot. I rarely "wing" a bird and account 100% of my misses to poor shooting.

I hate that this issue still plagues the sporting community.

[Curly]

You can buy steel shot in size 6 at your local Wally World.  I used it for chukars this year and had no issues with it.

Wouldn't you have to be very close to shoot the chukars with size 6 steel?  That is like using #8 lead.  I wouldn't think you'd be good past 25 yards.